Poor English -foreign students

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mzdejg1d3o

I have to confess I am seeing the end result of this problem with M.Sc. students entering the workforce with a level of English such that academic reports require significant edits to make them acceptable.

The employees are incredibly intelligent especially mathematically but the poor English is something that requires resource to address and you simply can't bring the subject up in a PDR without accusations of racism. I can't simply say as a development objective to improve Englsih as there isn't time in a demanding career and it becomes increasingly difficult to learn foreign languages as you age.

I am glad this subject is being raised as it does undermine HE institutions in my opinion.

Separate to the need for competency in English for a UK degree, which I agree with -

It depends on what one believes a degree is for, isn't it?
What's the point of a degree in classics, or theology, or Anglo-Saxon? Why should people who wish to study these "academic" subjects which are of limited modern relevance be able to, whereas someone who wants to go into the film industry via scriptwriting, photography, or costume design - all highly skilled roles that it is difficult to get on the job unskilled experience in - not be able to?

I suppose I see a first degree as both the chance to follow a passion at a high level, and a chance to learn skills that will support a chosen career entry pathway. And additionally, a degree is a chance to begin to forge an adult identity amongst peers with arms length parental support and some safety nets.

@Teenylittlefella Many of the few that study those subjects at very limited academic unis are doing them because they are academic people. They don’t want to be teachers but classicists make good barristers! They tend to be highly intelligent. They don’t all stay in academia and use the skills they have in their careers. However where a job is mostly skills that are not requiring high intellect, why not train via a below degree route? Give people time to grow into their jobs and learn from experienced practitioners?

The reason young people cannot train in costume design is that employers presumably take degree holders - but why? Why is diploma level so bad with work experience? We need to change - especially for low paid arts jobs where the IFS says the grads earn less than mom degree holders. What’s the point of forcing the loans on young people and then the state never getting the money back via repayments. Who is winning exactly? I guess mostly employers who cannot be bothered to train anyone and uni staff who train thousands for non existent jobs.

Of course MN dc will be the high flyers with the world at their feet but stats show a very different picture. Whet is so wrong with training on the job and studying at the same time?

The vast majority of law grads earn less than doctors because they don’t get to qualify as solicitors or barristers

Even those that do may earn very little - criminal barristers who are the absolute backbone of our legal system are paid disgracefully little - considerably less that minimum wage once brief time is taken into consideration.

I don't think I have ever agreed with you more than on this thread @TizerorFizz

I didn't go to university. However, it was before everyone was expected to go in to higher education. I achieved globally recognised professional qualifications by studying at evening classes instead. They were directly relevant to my job, and not having a degree hasn't held me back in any way.

What's the point of a degree in classics, or theology, or Anglo-Saxon? Why should people who wish to study these "academic" subjects which are of limited modern relevance be able to,

The point is that they are studying them at a institution of higher education not higher training. Education is meant to be an enlightening experience. The society that we have now where culture is not valued, where the arts are underfunded and cash is king and where lawyers who make money for multinational businesses make many many multiples in income over those who ensure that every criminal has a defence lawyer is not my idea of a model society. University is the last time academic DC get a chance to pursue education for the sake of enlightenment rather than jumping on the daily grind. Speaking as an ex classicist who went into taxation it was very useful - I was far better at reading complex legislation than those with degrees in law and accountancy as it was a hell of a lot easier to construe than Cicero or Aeschylus. And I had an understanding of how some radically different systems of taxation operated - very useful when discussing policy.

@Londonmummy66 I perhaps phrased my post unhelpfully. I believe that people should be able to study at degree level for the joy of it, whatever it is, within reason, that they love; and that there is more to uni than the purposefulness of the course.

Some people would argue that a degree in classics is worth it because that person is very clever. I would argue that a fine artist is very clever too, just differently clever, as is a costume designer or a film maker, or a computer scientist or a mathematician. Why are some types of intellect theoretically more worthy?

I would turn your question around, @Teenylittlefella

The chance to prepare for a profession or career pathwa, particularly if you already have a passion to follow, is important. I agree there is much to be said for doing this away from home in many cases.

But you have framed the question to prioritise the concept of a degree. Why ? More, and more pragmatic, training pathways should be equally valued. The budding photographer, TV producer, graphic artist and many more may be best equipped via alternative pathways. Right now these pathways are not seen as entrees to the middle class, so there is a social barrier. If that barrier were removed - and I admit that in today’s Britain this is a big ask - would you feel so strongly?

Because the real question is, what is a degree all about? And how much should it matter? I think the answer to the second question is ‘not very’ and I say that as an academic. The skills and competencies that should be codified by the degree are the important thing. That a degree should become a class signifier is absurd.

@Teenylittlefella - I would agree with you on that - I have a DC studying at a conservatoire - their degree this year will be the culmination of 14 years of music practice - and amazing as they are they won't be able to make a living solely by performing as we undervalue the arts in so many ways in this country.

@Londonmummy66 Lots of things might appear undervalued but every job has a value. That’s the same the world over. Not everyone is gifted at music and not everyone can be a high earning lawyer. The markets for these careers are different. You cannot force people to pay high prices for the arts and, to be fair, at the highest level, sponsors are very generous. I’m looking at ROH tickets at £150 plus. Theatre tickets at £90 plus. As people feel worse off, discretionary spending is curtailed. I think many people simply won’t spend the money and prefer councils to spend on schools and social services. It’s also worth remembering who is most likely to support the arts. Often the better paid and successful companies from what I can see.

@RampantIvy I have not kept a tally on agreement and disagreement but I’m happy to debate - as ever!

@Londonmummy66 has articulated a useful distinction between education and training. It might make sense to restrict traditional degrees to programmes conferring higher education. A historical precedent is that medical degrees fall outside of the BA/BSc paradigm and for a long time Medicine was thought too applied to be a proper subject for university study (in Britain).

But that ship sailed some time ago. As long as having a degree is a class signifier I don’t object, but I think both society and the economy would improve if that implicit tie were cut and more useful training pathways were opened.

I would say to @Teenylittlefella that for the scriptwriters of her example, many traditional academic first degrees would be highly appropriate, as would a Creative Writing degree.

Well I suppose I would argue that the reason for a degree is that we are looking at youngsters who may yet change their mind about what makes them get up in the morning. If you have undertaken a technical course on, say, coding in Python, and then decide that you don't want to be a Python coder, you have a harder argument to make in terms of transferrable skills compared with a computer science BSc holder who decides they don't want to be Python coder.

My young person has a much broader education in film making via a degree, that incorporates a broad base of experiences and a chance to specialize. He went in thinking he liked one aspect of film making and has found it is another role entirely that makes his heart sing. Plus with a recognition that he is unlikely to be the next Speilberg, he has transferable skills in writing, producing, camera operation, team working, procurement etc. This could theoretically be via a different route from a degree, but such a course doesn't exist to my knowledge. A degree tends to give a broader education within the chosen field than an apprenticeship as these are currently designed; and also grants access to a plethora of jobs that specify degree level study as it demonstrates commitment, self motivation, a degree of stickability, some academic intelligence.

This is very interesting; thank you, @Teenylittlefella

The programme your YP went through sounds wonderful.

A course in Python is far too limited to be an example of what I had in mind. I was thinking of programmes of perhaps two years duration, or more with a paid component.

The dichotomy between a CS degree and a typical British IT degree would be a better example. One is based in first principles and IMO gives the greatest flexibility. The other is more pragmatic. Many mums come on this board to say proudly that their DC’s lecturers tell them employers prefer it and I silently think, because starting positions and salaries are lower, though I am basing this on my university’s CS data. But after a while, the degree no longer matters - job performance and professional development are trumps. That is true in many jobs (obviously not for doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc) as it should be. But a degree remains a social divide. If we had more high quality training programmes of different types, this would matter less. As it bloody well should.

I don’t know of a non-degree programme that prepares YP for film making either. Yet if we think about what a degree used to mean - thinking back to the days when even medicine was suspect - there is no reason the pathway need be called a degree. It certainly has intellectual components but also others - which I respect highly. I think social equity would be advanced if there were multiple education and training pathways commanding society’s respect and ‘a degree’ was one amongst them, signifying a fairly intellectual approach to continued study.

@Teenylittlefella There are great people making films who never studied it at all. Years ago these degrees simply didn’t exist. This is because uni was academic. Emma Thomas and Christopher Nolan didn’t study film making. Most highly paid journalists didn’t do a BA is journalism. You do not need to have an accountancy degree to be an accountant. So many people were able to do degrees but then pursue a career in what interests them. A sideways move if you like.

@Londonmummy66 Yes. Criminal bar pays criminal sums of money!

I meant to add: one of the reasons there is good money in some areas of law is that you do need great command of English. Written and oral. So just passing exams won’t get dc into the roles. Being judged equal to others when English is not good enough won’t get you far in some jobs either.