Poor English -foreign students

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mzdejg1d3o

I have to confess I am seeing the end result of this problem with M.Sc. students entering the workforce with a level of English such that academic reports require significant edits to make them acceptable.

The employees are incredibly intelligent especially mathematically but the poor English is something that requires resource to address and you simply can't bring the subject up in a PDR without accusations of racism. I can't simply say as a development objective to improve Englsih as there isn't time in a demanding career and it becomes increasingly difficult to learn foreign languages as you age.

I am glad this subject is being raised as it does undermine HE institutions in my opinion.

Oh, that sounds interesting @TizerorFizz

I thought you might have a business background. You seem concerned to make systems work properly for various stakeholders

@poetryandwine Ha! Yes - I just want all dc to have opportunities that meet their needs. I also think clarity of expectations works best for students and employees but of course some differences are to be applauded and catered for. It’s just finding the right level for all to flourish.

Perhaps the answer is to make such modules compulsory for those who do not have a high enough IELTS grade. If requiring a grade to study at all is allowable, then it's not much different to say that they have to study extra English unless they have a higher grade.
Of course, if IELTS grades are being paid for in some countries, then there might still be problems with those who pay for a higher grade in order to evade the extra English.
Run your own IELTS-equivalent tests on arrival? Maybe even for native speakers as well - no discrimination then.

Gently, @lanthanum , I don’t see how this would work.

If a student has passed the IELTS threshold for the degree programme, who will admit that their grade is not high enough? That’s saying the programme admits unqualified students. In fact this is the crux of the problem: IELTS thresholds should be higher. But no one will admit this in the current financial crisis.

If only a few universities impose extra English requirements, those universities will lose the dosh. The dosh is the bottom line, sad though that may be.

I guess your last paragraph is the key thing here. The only way to increase the requirements would be for all universities to agree - and presumably even then the students may opt for a different country. And at the moment, nobody can afford to lose overseas students.

IELTS needs an update if so many students have passed and are unable to use English at the level needed for study.

But if it continues as it is, degrees from uk universities will be devalued and will not be as attractive to international students anyway.

The student will just hold up the IELTS certificate and insist they're good enough.

I’m wondering why it’s racist to say a student doesn’t possess the skills and attributes to pass the course? That’s hardly fair on the ones who do. It’s like having a two tier degree. One standard one and one for students who cannot manage the full specification,

This brings me back to the need to reduce unis and places available by mergers.

It's not only foreign students but second generation immigrants who may have English as a second language at home. It must be difficult to fully immerse yourself in a language when your immediate family and peers are speaking a foreign tounge. I love on a city where there is an increasing use of English as a second language and schools seem to have an uphill battle to teach children English to an acceptable standard. Our curriculum at secondary level brings out Chaucer and Shakespeare when a lot of children really do need remedial English to ensure they are ultimately for for the work force but if course it looks like it is entirely racist to segregate pupils into different English paths. There are families that emphasis learning Arabic as an equal priority to English which only worsens the situation.

Local inclusive universities are not going to exclude students on the basis of poor Englsih and it seems to be at least in the local public sector that stilted, heavily accented or grammatically incorrect speech cannot be viewed as an impediment.

The end result is a culture of embarrassment when we don't understand almonds speech and a reluctance to gain clarification as we are mortified with the prospect of being seen as racist.

One thing I have always thought is that if you decide to emigrate for employment or study there is a fundamental obligation to learn your country's language and there are risks in terms of employability amongst other things if you fail. If you have made the life changing decision to move country you cannot expect citizens of that country to accommodate in a full comprehensive way lack of English ability such that all barriers are removed.

I work in healthcare and it is often the case that translators are need for patients. Translators are expensive and not readily available in every language so inevitability there are risks of miscommunication in a pressured setting. It is understandable that a recent elderly immigrant may not have a great grasp of English but what worries me is that some communities want to pass their language down to children due to cultural reasons with fear of an important part of their cultural identity fading even if there is a compromise to English ability especially in the vital arena of schooling.

With further immigration and universities needing foreign student money are we going to get an erosion in standards of English simply because we are not calling out poor Engilsh? The ability to speak English well seems to be viewed now as trait showing colonial dominance and a means to appear superior to those with little or no English and I have seen this does irk some.

Ia m bit confused about the issue about born in UK to immigrnats and learning parent's language? I met quote a few people born in these situation in numerous countries and while many kept original language at home, kida had very good grasp on local lang, as locals, because that was the language outside of home and used daily with the benfit of actually having it at school too. I have quite a few bilingual/trilingual from birth friends who grew up like that. Most people want to pass their language down to their kids. It's a great thing.

Regarding interpreters. You can be well able to deal with normal life but medical terms etc are not basic vocabulary and even local language users can get confused. Same goes for courts. So I get why people want an interpreter. In my native country thoigh, you pay for it outside of emergency situations. UK is very generous in these matters, yes.

I think being truly bilingual is a great thing and I know a few people that are. The problem arises when children are exposed to two languages and Englsh isn't the priority or at least excelling in it. Incredibly bright children can become fluent in multiple languages but we have to accept there is a spectrum of abillity.

English like maths is a subject of paramount importance and therefore in terms of cognitive bandwidth it simply has to be a priority even if the other language is depriotised. Teachers need support from parents and that could mean increased use of English in the home environment. I think there is fear from some parents that if they switch progressively to English then future generations will have no knowledge of their mother tongue but isn't this always going to the the case when people emigrate?

I think One issue in the inner city comp I am familiar with is that the GCSE syllabus incorporates Macbeth, A Christmas Carol and Lord of the Flies in the syllabus. Parents of various faiths and cultures complain 'forcing' children to learn these texts is a form of cultural domination and the children are missing out on middle eastern and Indian writers that would represent their culture more closely. You therefore have a resentment about Englsih that may actually not be necessary and in some cases I think absolute focus on the essentials of English should be a school priority.

I think the generals fear is accepting sub standard English and not having the ability to criticise it for fear of being accused as racist. I think this view pervades universities and possibly some schools.

I think it’s a fair question. I was an ESOL instructor for a few years in a mainstream secondary school.
I found that having a different language used at home was not necessarily an impediment to learning English when the child had been born here and gone all the way through our schooling system as a second generation immigrant. There were, however, pockets of communities which were big enough that children born here would arrive at school aged four with very little experience of hearing English, then make friends with children from their own communities so speak their home language with them, then go home and watch films/ listen to music in their language etc. These could be third generation immigrants but you could see in their productive language (writing and speaking) skills that they spoke English as a second language. If the child’s only exposure to English is during lesson times, it can very much impact their grammar and vocabulary.
If the children came from smaller communities and made friends with English speaking children etc. their language skills were indistinguishable from the children who only spoke English.

Elbone

I think you make a very good point and certainly the phenomenon of 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants having poor English is concerning; this is not racism but concern about the life chances of the children and potential exclusion from professional paths in life.

I think when people immigrate they obviously wish to retain their faith and culture and those are inextricably linked to language. Families will therefore expect their children to maintain a second language and if the child is not particularly academically adept it is Englsih that may suffer. One instance is a child I know of that struggles with English but whose parents continually school him in Arabic to learn the Koran. When you are expected to recite an Arabic regions text hundreds of pages long verbatim you can see how children's academic bandwidth is exceeded.

There has to be work to convince minority communities that English is paramount for optimising life chances which is actually quite hard. Teachers I know of are reluctant to overly criticise poor English as they may be accused of a lack of tolerance or inclus ivity.

I think also you are storing up problems by having communities not adopting English or not prioritising it every day speech to their friends as ultimately you may get poor educational qualifications and I don't think you can then start blaming employers for discrimination if certain career paths then become hard to follow.

@mids2019 It’s long been the case that children as young as 5 attend Arabic lessons and learn the Quran. It impinges on learning English that’s for sure.

I fundamentally don’t agree with the notion of “inclusive” unis. This is because if dc cannot function adequately on the course due to poor English, they are overly favoured if awarded the degree. What about all the other students who are competent in all areas.

Im not sure GCSE covers Chaucer. I did some at O level! I’m of the view that a British curriculum reflects our culture and that of Britain’s greatest authors. Parents are free to teach their heritage. I suspect a British kid in Pakistan would learn about the language and culture there.

In theory I agree that good facility with the language of your adopted country is important for everyone. You can’t fully participate in British democracy without some level of English. Sufficient English to work with a spectrum of classmates at university and to do your job is a reasonable requirement.

But when does this shade into racism? As @YellowAsteroid said earlier, people from a number of cultures including India and Nigeria learn beautiful, more formal English which they may speak with an accent. Our undergraduates can react variously to this, when I would expect more of them. Many also prefer to do work and socialise with other Home students before giving individual Overseas students a chance. Translators in the NHS seem understandable to me, as a PP said, where OP expressed concerns.

I know many people capable of becoming bilingual, OP. In the past it was more of an expectation for immigrants. I am not sure what factors are impeding it now, but historically it is not the use of native language in the home.

I don’t understand the complaints about various accents. I am not British and amongst reasonably fluent English speakers I find the most difficult accents are certain rather intense regional British ones. So I do worry that this can be the edge of racism.

It is not always a bad thing to discriminate; the whole point of qualifications is to discriminate between those who achieve and standard and those who don’t.

In terms of job applications, when did it change that you couldn’t offer a foreigner a job unless there were no one with permanent British residency available to do it?

The Skilled Worker Visa with employer sponsorship is still the most common pathway for immigrants. And the new income requirement of £38,700 is higher than the median British income

No university can afford to stand out as being more demanding than others. The sector is in a financial crisis.

For my masters in law I learnt quickly to take notice of the 10 min intro videos they did of various professors talking about their modules and rule out anyone who I could not understand.

That rather introduces a huge conflict of interest.

I am not defending it, @WarmingClothesontheRadiator , but the British public are already unhappy about a very small increase in tuition fees that won’t touch the sides of the problem. What solution do you propose?