Poor English -foreign students

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mzdejg1d3o

I have to confess I am seeing the end result of this problem with M.Sc. students entering the workforce with a level of English such that academic reports require significant edits to make them acceptable.

The employees are incredibly intelligent especially mathematically but the poor English is something that requires resource to address and you simply can't bring the subject up in a PDR without accusations of racism. I can't simply say as a development objective to improve Englsih as there isn't time in a demanding career and it becomes increasingly difficult to learn foreign languages as you age.

I am glad this subject is being raised as it does undermine HE institutions in my opinion.

Is this actually true? All over this thread are people saying they daren't take action because they assume they'll be accused, but if nobody ever takes the action because of that assumption then how do we know whether the assumption is true?

Also, employers can take whatever view they like but the law of the land is more relevant. If you baldly state "this person has poor written and spoken English and cannot be understood or make themselves understood, clients/patients cannot communicate with them and it's affecting profit/safety", and provide evidence, and don't mention skin colour, accent, race or nationality - and if these points are provable (which they are because they're true and would be shown to be so under examination) are you really signing your own resignation? That would seem an open and shut unfair dismissal case.

@SirCharlesRainier It is really all about over zealous interpretation of employment laws that industry doesn’t indulge in. And it is an indulgence. It’s not bullying to performance manage and have clear expectations of employees. Nor is it racist to have expectations of an employee concerning their spoken and written English. Of course employees must be offered help to improve but it’s better not to employ them in the first place. If the organisation can avoid it.

The uni situation is different but no student with all the attributes needed for gaining the degree likes to see others pass but are really failing very important aspects of the course but the uni turns a blind eye as it needs the money. If is patently wrong.

Actually - does anyone know if this happens in the USA? Students pay shedloads there for degrees but is poor English tolerated?

My DD is the undergraduate course rep for her (first) year at her uni. She is to ask students if they have any issues and report back with general concerns or more individual issues .
So a couple weeks ago in class they were broken up into groups of four and she was with three Chinese international students. She said it was difficult - they didn't really understand much of what she was saying. She asked them if they were enjoying the course. They said no. She asked why. Because there was a lot of reading and they didn't understand it. Now this is a top ten uni with a sizeable minority of international students. It is not a technical course, but has loads of reading and essay and report writing.
Now this impacts their own education, the course and my DDs education. She wants to engage in interesting and complex discussions during her seminars/workshops. She wants to learn with people equally enthusiastic and committed to the course. If a third struggle with the language the course is taught in, nobody wins. I understand universities need the money international students pay, but there needs to be more rigorous requirements concerning language comprehension before admission.

Tizer

I agree completely but I still think it takes a brave manager to pick up on this issue and yes they will need support of there is any recourse to racist bullying allegatiins. It is serious and unpleasant and you may find yourself at the wrong end of things.

If HR decide support is needed then that support has to come from improving English through courses at the employers expense preumably. Of course you then have a member of staff from an ethnic minority that has been told to 'learn English', again the optics aren't great.

as I work in the NHS there is a tacit assumption we can accommodate poor English

That's a rather worrying statement. When I meet a healthcare professional, I certainly hope they've got good English skills. Poor communication in that context could be fatal.

I did have a meeting with a consultant during my first pregnancy where we struggled to understand each other - it was in COVID and the masks didn't help either. Something incorrect went on my notes as a result of that. Fortunately I found out as my midwife mentioned it and I was able to correct it, but that's not going to happen every time.

@taxguru , similar situation here. It's awful to wait for a face to face consultation, only to find it's with a doctor whom my very deaf OH can't understand, and who can't understand my OH's speech ( or mine )either.
Last time we tried to explain a bladder problem following radiotherapy, to be told at some length that it's a good idea not to drink anything after 8pm. Really fucking helpful.

@mids2019 As I said, some employers prefer to have a culture that is all about protecting certain characteristics but lose sight of the other employees and clients. For other organisations, clients come first. I’ve not worked for an organization that had such a culture and yes, I’ve been assured of racism as a manager. It was about written English. The issues impinged on the effective running of the section and was making work difficult for the team in a very busy section. After negotiation, HR agreed a transfer with the employee to another job which was definitely a better fit for the employee. Then after a couple of weeks I was accused of racism. Luckily I did have the back of HR who had understood the issues but once ethnic minority quotas appear, organisations are keen to meet them but don’t always think about consequences.

This has similarities with international student intake. Never mind the quality of whom you accept and its impact on others. My workplace incident was a long time ago now and written tests were introduced at interview. We had relied on application forms but these can be filled in by others. I think when an attribute is essential then employers must satisfy themselves the employee can meet the requirements regardless of anything else. Reasonable adjustments can only go so far. I’m not sure why organisations are prepared to diminish their service to clients to such an extent that there are mistakes which could be life or death.

I did a MA in Applied Linguistics a few years ago. I was the only native English speaker on the course. Half of my course mates had exceptional English. I learnt a lot from them because their approach to English was much less instinctive and more mechanical, scientific, which was really helpful in some modules.
However, around a quarter of the students could hardly speak a word of English. To be put on a group task with them was absolutely brutal. I actually saw one of them use google translate to search for the word “noun”… on a MA in APPLIED LINGUISTICS COURSE!
They still passed the course. I presumed they paid people to write their assignments and chose courses that have few exams.

I see this problem at our University where I teach UG and PG courses although we increasingly interview to assess. It's probably going to get a lot worse as Unis become increasingly financially desperate and the last of our larger UK child cohort (which is now going through secondary school) goes through University and home student numbers continue to fall. Educating foreign students will become THE business for UK HE.

We recommend English classes when appropriate - but the improvement required to read, write and discuss academic English cannot be picked up in a term of intermediate EFL.

As for IELTS - there are too many ways to game it even if standards were adequate. I had a Chinese masters student with very nearly perfect IELTS scores who absolutely could not converse or write in English.

Do we want to pay more taxes so universities are less reliant on foreign students?

Or we could have less universities - tell our young people that as well as affordable housing and the chance to live and work in Europe we now want to take away the opportunity to go to university from them.

I'm not sure any Western country is quite so hostile to young people as ours.

Read consultant Peter Duffy's book "Whistle in the wind" - he was forced out of his job when he raised concerns about laziness and incompetence of some foreign colleagues. His concerns were confirmed in subsequent disciplinary cases against those colleagues where they were censured and restrictions placed on their future working. So yes, it is actually true!

Do we want university and degree standards to be reduced because we're chasing foreign money? I think we've had enough dumbing down already and it's time to raise standards.

Of course it's not racist, what a ridiculous perspective!

It's not knowing a language, nothing to do with race!

They're missing a vital competence

That's why it's more important than ever that patients have FULL access to their medical records. OH and I have had to have them corrected a few times over recent years when the written record of consultations has been wrong, mostly by minor things, but once by something fundamental which showed a complete misunderstanding of the effects of one of my OH's cancer drugs. A classic on mine was where a GP had written hypotension instead of hypertension.

Here's the full documentary. The tl/dr is that if we crack down on this, a lot of universities will go bust. Take your choice. www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0025kyp?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

But then again, DD has a lecturer who is near impossible to understand, so it's not just the students

DD had a lecturer who was so difficult to understand she didn't chose his module for her second year.

Whilst there are some high end schools there, a lot of the school teachers use pidgen English, which is not the same as being educated in English.

Can you share where you lived in Nigeria to see this? I can categorically state that this isn't common in Nigerian schools, high-end or not. However, depending on the state and/or region where pigdin is more their official common language than English (thinking about some parts of Delta Warri, PortHarcourt, Lagos, etc), you may experience that in some schools there especially in more rural or disadvantaged areas but not nation-wide. Also, some teachers in some schools may communicate casually in Pidgin or their different native languages but when it comes to lessons, they do those in English. Teaching in Pidgin English is really not a common thing in Nigeria except for certain more undeveloped places. Most are educated in English and they don't have to have attended the high end schools.

The issue is that most Nigerians are at least bilingual, then adding all the other different Nigerian languages and Pidgin English they're raised among to the mix, it can mess with the language structure in their heads as words are often borrowed from and swapped between the different Nigerian languages (including English) in the general culture.

Not adding to the topic because I agree with the OP and think it's only fair; just wanted to add this point to what you wrote on Nigeria.

Fair question, @GeneralYouuu (love your username!). I did live rurally in Nigeria, as well as Port Harcourt (although that wasn't the name that was used for it!) and also in Lagos, as well as some time in Abuja. You've raised fair points about most Nigerians being at least bi-lingual and the difficulty that brings with language structure.

My DD1 had Nigerian friends at school. One family was so high up in Nigeria you would have heard of them! She went to a very grand wedding in Switzerland! The Nigerian girls did speak their Pidgen English at school between themselves. It’s just what people do and it’s fine. In their roles beyond school it’s different and they do speak English well.

@HPFA It is by no means a certainty that all grads do well. No one would worry too much if some unis merged and degree status for some courses was removed. It’s not saying dc are not worth anything and most don’t go to uni anyway! So reducing from 38% to 33% would barely be noticed by young people as long as alternatives were available. Eg HNC type courses linked to employment. Many unis really do have low entry tariffs and the degrees are not great. I would prefer to see better quality training and not poor value degrees. Also the people you want to pay up are paying for their student loans! That’s hardly fair to ask for more.

The obvious solution I suppose is to have courses or even colleges which only take foreign students whose written and spoken English is not up to a degree standard. They could be taught in English but perhaps with simultaneous translation. I suppose thé foreign students would not think that these institutions, even if attached to a ‘full service’ University, carried the ‘prestige’ of the indigenous institution.

For me, the major problem is the impact on the education of the native speakers. They are not receiving the proper and mandated education. Why are we not protecting their ‘right’ to the education for which they have studied to qualify, and for which they are paying a substantial amount? When did we start to think that people from other countries ‘rights’ trump theirs?

This is not how a prospering society is built.

As ever in this country, we don't like any of the alternatives. Don't want to pay taxes, don't want foreign students......

What good is sending our young people to universities where their peers don’t speak a common language and their instructors don’t follow consistent marking guidelines? It’s devalued, a poor experience and putting them in debt.

It’s a pantomime of university, not real university.

I have young people working for me, in their 20s on the hoysing ladder. They did it by: going for degree apprenticeships, partnering up, and buying in the home counties rather than London.

We cannot afford to give everyone everything they want on their own terms.

An elderly friend was kicked out of his care home for saying he couldn't understand what was being said to him by a heavily accented care assistant. As we get older these things can be more difficult as hearing may deteriorate.

I don’t think the degrees for the English speakers are devalued but the route to getting one can be more difficult than it should be with students present that are not up to standard. Awarding degrees to them when less is required is simply buying the degree. Well - close to it. Standards should be standards so everyone trusts the degree.