Ideal university for Medicine

[Kayt79]

DS is in Y12, and set on Medicine. He's been to a few open days already, but until he's done his UCAT next summer it's impossible to know where will be realistic to apply.

So, just out of interest, and putting aside entry requirements and "prestige", which would be your ideal universities for Medicine, based on the overall student experience?

Being an F2 last year and earlier has no comparison to this year and going forward. Unemployment was not staring you in the face, lucrative locum F3 was v common.

This from an online article from March 2024 quoting a UK based doctors and healthcare organisation that lobbies for IMG recruitment:

“We are entering skill building in India. Our three-year programme will enable MBBS graduates to gain UK qualifications and open the doors to the world," he said over a phone call.
Singhal clarified that the NHS also recruits from numerous other countries, not just India. “We are running similar programmes in the Middle East, Pakistan, and European Union for hiring consultants. Soon, we will be opening centres for junior-level hiring in the Middle East and Central Asia." While labelling Indian doctors as “brilliant" and “outstanding", Singhal said those at the junior level – who have recently finished MBBS – require understanding to execute whatever they have learnt so far.
Mid-level doctors need more soft skills. “The curriculum in India does not teach the way doctors should communicate with the patient, patient’s family, compassion and teamwork. Knowledge is not a problem with Indian doctors. We only need to polish them."
Singhal believes that gaining work experience in the UK equips doctors to excel in various global settings, including the US and Europe. “Moreover, if doctors choose to return to India, their experience will also benefit the country."

The article also states that this UK based lobby that is responsible for recruitment within the UK’s National Health Service (NHS), aims to position India as the global hub for medical talent.

Although posters on here have spoken about support they or their doctor DCs may have given younger colleagues, reading this article and others available online, the support that IMGs receive (at least before they arrive) such as being fast tracked, etc is on another level. It seems the online recruitment system as it stands is also tipped in favour of IMG recruitment.

Wonder how much consideration was put into the possible impact on UK trained medical graduates? The experiences of @mumsneedwine @Needmoresleep and @Haffdonga 's DCs give an insight into a much bigger problem which if isn't addressed now will only become worse. There doesn't seem to be as much championing and supporting of UK medical graduates. Though initially well intended to maybe boost the NHS workforce, the timing of this campaign has possibly added to an explosion of IMG numbers. Note also the article mentions expansion of the IMG recruitment campaign which could potentially make the problem worse if the need for such recruitment is not reassessed now.

That article made me feel physically sick.

Our lovely hard working and dedicated young people have effectively been discarded.

It is sickening. The U.K. government, presumably the Tories, green-lighted this and it looks like Labour have no plans to change things.

Why did the U.K. medical students bother? There is no point.

All the talk of expanding medical school places, only to provide no real opportunities at the end. It’s all smoke and mirrors, playing with peoples lives and hopes and dreams. I am so angry.

@OneMorePiece could you provide a link.

And @AsTearsGoBy

How do doctors become experienced doctors if they don’t do some of this lower entry-level work done by PAs?

And what of the career profession of a PA? There is none?

I can understand why they don’t allow medical graduates to apply for these roles. It would show how broken the system is.

It feels increasingly like Law where many law graduates become paralegals now as a way in. It’s beneath them in the sense they’ve already got a degree and often LPC or GDL. But the competition is so intense people will do anything.

But the difference here is that the “training contracts” for doctors on the NHS are open to global applications.

It’s not xenophobic to ask for your own graduates to be considered first, is it?

Why do we fund universities with any help at all of these graduates are to go abroad. We just training up doctors for other countries then, aren’t we?

And then buying in doctors globally without the solid training we have given our students who have now gone abroad.

It’s insane.

As a parent of a med student, I'm reading this thread with horror. Is there a way to lobby MPs and journalists to raise awareness of this issue. I'm happy to meet or write to my MP. So many Mumsnet issues have been picked up by the newspapers, so we can make a difference.

https://www-news18-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.news18.com/amp/india/uks-health-service-hiring-from-india-but-not-in-big-numbers-as-speculated-top-nhs-recruiter-to-news18-8830802.html?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17383404864384&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.news18.com%2Findia%2Fuks-health-service-hiring-from-india-but-not-in-big-numbers-as-speculated-top-nhs-recruiter-to-news18-8830802.html

@Barleypilaf

My DD set off for her F1 with great ambition. She had chosen a demanding set of placements, which would give her great experience. Yet within a week or two she was very disillusioned, though she loved the job and said nice things about her colleagues. However the bottle neck was already becoming apparent and unless things changed it would only get worse. She had worked out that she had no future in the NHS, possibly in medicine. .

I will post about possible lobbying. Perhaps in the first instance posters on the general medicine threads could be alerted to this one. Probably too late for our DC. But if we all work together we can get things changed for them.

Also once they get to the end of their course it's a lottery where they will do their F1&2 and has no bearing on where they're went to uni or their result.

It’s not exactly a lottery AFAIK. Don’t they rank their preferences and then it’s a merit system? That’s how DD trained, maybe it’s changed.

No it's now a lottery. Doesnt matter if they come first or last at their school

@TuesdaysAreBest things have changed so much for the worse in the last 18 months.
5th years now get a random number and are ranked using no metrics whatsoever.

I've written to my MP, 2 Health secretaries & had nothing but platitudes. They don't care.

No, not merit. That was felt to be inequitable.

They get to express five preferences. They try to give as many as they can one of the five. If not they can be sent anywhere. They are not allowed to refuse.

Job loadings vary a lot. So if you find yourself in a particularly cash strapped bit of the NHS where F1s and F2s are a vital part of the labour force, you will learn a lot but be handicapped under the current NHS selection criteria.

It's like they are trying to do as much as they possibly can to make F1s and F2s emigrate or leave medicine altogether. I can understand how people not close to it or whose DC have gone through the system some years earlier would be incredulous. But it is all true. It is a total mess.

And many ended up this year with no job at all 3 weeks before start date. They then made up jobs so they were useless for training and only 9-5 (so that basic pay). Will be worse this year as more students.
Lots of F1s still don't know where they will be for F2. More jobs need to be made.

Planning is not very clever is it. They've known the number of Foundation places needed for the last 5 years. Oh except IMGs can apply for those too.

@PlopSofa
Would you be willing to work up a draft? Leave gaps where you need facts and others will be able to fill them in.

My experience of lobbying is to get the message out to as many named individuals as you can. Volume matters so lots of people writing, perhaps tweaking an original draft, will help. We will all have different contacts. A relative who is senior in the NHS. Someone in the BMA? Someone in the House of Lords. Anyone with influence who might run with it.

MPs are important, though the trick is to write a letter that has impact, but which they can also easily forward to the Health Secretary. (MPs letters have to be answered.) If the MP sparks, would they be willing to ask a question in Parliament or even raise and Early Day Motion.

Journalists. Again good if you can find a name. (I have just emailed the Telegraph lady who wrote the PA article linked a couple of pages back.) Perhaps we, concerned for our young people, write to the BMJ or similar.

I will report the post and ask MN if they can consider adding their weight. Not a mainstream parenting issue, but important none the less. And they might have ideas.

More suggestions welcome.

We can adapt any draft and post it as AIBU.

I think the focus needs to be on jobs and training places for post F2s. There are lots of other issues, but this is the one that has to be the priority.

Here's another Indian newspaper article quoting a response from the Indian Medical Association.

"While the announcement has sparked interest among Indian medical professionals, the IMA called it brain drain and noted that India too needs its specialists and those in real need of employment and better career prospects are actually the MBBS graduates.
“The cohort which the U.K. is seeking to employ are needed here in India as well, besides in many cases are much better paid here. The opening we want is for our MBBS graduates. The NHS has got gaps and we are ready to help them if they help us,” the IMA national president R.V. Asokan told The Hindu on Saturday.
Stating that the Association can’t support the migration of skilled doctors as it could undermine the Indian healthcare system he said that IMA is actively looking at setting up a portal for providing employment opportunities to young doctors.
“This will be a subscription-based programme which will give them opportunities both nationally and internationally. We are also looking at using the help of a commercial partner to ensure that our graduates get the best possible platform,” he said.
The IMA also maintained that the rate at which new medical colleges are opening will only add to the unemployment rate of graduates.
“We currently have over a lakh graduates passing out from the 706-odd colleges across India. We are seeing them struggle to get into a post graduate programme or get good employment opportunities. This situation has to change,” Dr. Ashokan said.
Meanwhile, the NHS, U.K.’s publicly funded health care system, noted that it will conduct training for the first batch of doctors.

These articles raise several questions: what is going on behind the scenes? It's clear the Indian Medical Association doesn't want the brain drain of 'skilled doctors' but want help for their fresh Indian MBBS graduates to obtain 'postgraduate programme and employment opportunities' within the NHS.

The opening we want is for our MBBS graduates. The NHS has got gaps and we are ready to help them if they help us,” the IMA national president R.V. Asokan
How is this impacting UK trained medical graduates? Is this fair on UK students embarking on their medical degrees who are unaware of the predicament that awaits them years down the line? Does helping equate to training up doctors in the UK for other countries who feel that their postgraduate programme is lacking?

Is there anyone who can be honest with UK medical graduates and tell them where they stand as they won't be aware of any deals, back room or otherwise, being done at their expense?

Exactly the same thing happens in Malaysia. Private medical schools are pumping out graduates. Having a child studying medicine is a big prestige thing. The state health care system is under developed so cannot offer many training opportunities. The Private Health care system is only interested in experienced Doctors. People are paying so they want the best.

Soi the UK is seen as a place to go and develop skills. Great if we have gaps, but not if it means denying opportunities to our own graduates. I heard from Malaysian friends that the UK was also setting up an agreement to provide training for their young doctors. We are so kind!

Oddly though, I don't think DD comes across many Indian doctors. Many seem to be from obscure parts of Africa, where morally we really should not be recruiting. Or eastern Europe, ie Bulgaria. Graduates from there are not usually Bulgarian. Medical schools there take students from all over, sometimes with worryingly low entry requirements.

I appreciate your DS is thriving in the current system. But suspect that in the future he may regret the the loss of the current F2s. You may disagree, and support the status quo, but I hope you can agree that others are not unreasonable in seeing a problem and are unhappy about it

Needmoresleep my posts throughout the thread make it clear that I'm very aware of the problem and simply can't fathom the policy behind expanding places at medical school without creating a corresponding increase further up the line. When you say 'thriving in the current system' I'm not clear what you mean. DS loves his job and his specialty but has stretches of being very clearly exhausted. That seems to be par for the course and he never complains and has almost never had to take a day of sick leave since he started as an F1. I do sometimes wonder how he manages to power through.

it's not a competition as to whose DC had it harder. It's about ALL doctors getting the jobs they've all worked so hard for. Most of the students I teach had jobs all through medical school as they had to for money, no time to publish papers or funds to attend international conferences

mumsneedwine I certainly don't see it as a competition. Indeed you're the one who's posted about how many hours your DD works in a week etc. I've not posted anything remotely similar until Needmoresleep wrote this: Great if you have time during F2 to write numerous applications, write papers and research. Not great if you are getting bags of experience....but need your free time to sleep and unwind. It's mesmerizing to me that anyone believes that it's either bags of experience or spare time to indulge yourself writing papers etc. I therefore posted that DS as an F2 worked in the busiest hospital in the UK in an area of miserably high deprivation and that this was against the backdrop of the pandemic. He also produced a paper. This is not a competition but it also needs to be understood that some other junior doctors have worked astonishingly hard and have not been gifted time or lacked the acquisition of skills and experience. DS made time - no idea how; I couldn't have done it. Incidentally he also had a paying job while at medical school to make ends meet and his attendance at the conference was funded. Some of the posts on this thread make it sound as though only the current cohort of F2s know what hard work looks like. That must be quite irritating to the older doctors here who probably remember only too well their baptism of fire years.

I'm not sure about this either: Being an F2 last year and earlier has no comparison to this year and going forward. Unemployment was not staring you in the face, lucrative locum F3 was v common. sendsummer's posts and numbers strongly suggest that there is in fact no cliff edge and that this is a gradual trend, not something of sudden onset. So both on the work front and the career front, I don't see the difference quite as starkly as you. Which is not to say that I think it's all fine - it's obviously very tough. But I've said that repeatedly. It just isn't wholly new.

We disagree. Let's not keep going.

Doctors can't get jobs. They dream of a training number but can't get one despite publishing papers and having amazing portfolios and feedback. This is wrong.

Good doctors should be employed in the NHS.

mumsneedwine I think I have the right to reply when posts are directed at me and to add my own DC's experience. In the same way that you've done yourself.