Industrial placements

[BlueskyBluesea]

How are your DC getting on with arranging these? It seems like every placement is so competitive and really it is very lucky if a student is able to organise a placement that is relevant to their degree. Or do you have a son or daughter that found and completed a placement ....any advice gratefully appreciated ☺️

Fair point @AquaLeader

I acknowledge that ATS systems doing simple keyword matching (effectively a grep of a text file) are well matured and aren't using AI, even though I imagine some companies are marketing their products as such.

However, newer ATS systems are leveraging AI for enhanced keyword matching, specifically NLP and Semantic Search, to try and ascertain the context of and meaning behind the keywords.

The 2nd sentence was courtesy of Gemini 🙂- while I've a good understanding of GenAI (currently using the Open AI APIs for my day job - fintech) I've no experience of recruitment or how their systems operate.

Based on DS's experiences though, it does seem challenging to "defeat" the automation and reach the point of speaking to a human nowadays - far more so than 10 years ago (last time I went through a hiring process).

@TizerorFizz - yes, small firms may actually have a person read an application. DS has applied to 4 small firms though (single office/location) in early December and has yet to receive an acknowledgement of receipt of his application, which isn't a sign I'd want to work for a company like that. Appreciate that this won't be representative of all small firms though.

He's currently finding the best traction with mid-tier firms (circa. 500 employees with 5 - 10 offices) - still using automated tests, but being much more faster in their feedback cycles.

So long as they're not being (from their pov) spammed by many dozens of ill-targetted applications if their forms are very easy to fill in.

@cyclingmum67 That is very disappointing regarding firms not acknowledging his applications. It’s common now though! Had they advertised placements? I guess their HR is useless!

Not being serious, but would AI sifting recognise an AI application from a non human? Just musing but we are losing human contact and the individuality of human beings.

@ErrolTheDragon Well yes. But small firms can control that to some extent. A bigger issue is recruitment companies. Never ending marketing.

@TizerorFizz - yes, roles were advertised on job boards and the company website. 3 used webforms and 1 required an email - tbh even the most basic IT person should be able to configure an auto-reply for both those techniques to acknowledge receipt.

And yes, AI can recognise Gen AI written content - some of the tools embed hidden watermarks or metadata in their text which other AI tools can interpret. They can also recognise distinct patterns/styles of writing as being GenAI content

Well yes. I expect an acknowledgment of an order. It’s very poor. Thanks for info on AI.

Has anyone's DCs applied to the M&S Industrial Placement for Clothing & Home.

UK industrial placement years are horribly competitive - the daughter of a friend was one of 22k applicants to her first choice scheme and made the final cut of 30 but not the final 10 who were actually offered a placement year. She did however manage to get another placement which is going really well. Universities can include a "year with placement" on their course but in the UK employers not universities decide who is going to be recruited (this is a bit different in some EU countries where HE gets more say as to who goes where). Some schemes place tough criteria on applicants eg that they must be bilingual in another EU language.

How competitive are placements in the computer science industry? In particular, computer game software development.

@jennylamb1 How many companies do this work? How many placements are offered? My guess is it’s still pretty niche and very sought after. I guess no one has the stats though.

DS has gained a placement

Attended an Assessment Day on Tuesday and was offered this morning.

Really pleased for him of course, but somewhat surprised that the offer is subject to him accepting by 5pm tomorrow - otherwise it will be withdrawn. And they won't send the contract until he's given this acceptance

This is from a FTSE 100 commercial property firm.

Seems a little unprofessional to me and not binding if nothing signed.

I've told him to accept at this point and he can always change his mind - he's another 2 assessments for next week.

I think thats quite standard - they know candidates will be applying to lots and they want those who are keen and haven't been offered something else in the interim. My DS had 48 hours to accept his, then he got the contract etc. Well done to him!

@cyclingmum67 I don't think it's unprofessional, but I can appreciate it's frustrating for your DS. Hopefully they won't ask for an equally fast turn around on contract signature to give him a bit of time, but it might take too long for the other companies to offer / send contracts during which time he might lose this firm offer. So he needs to keep on top of timings.

I'd suggest he works out what he wants out of the placement and whether the company that has offered meets those needs so that he can make a swift decision next week. Also whether they offer graduate positions if he likes it there / they like him post placement. A year at a FTSE 100 will be great on his CV regardless, so he also needs to consider that too.

Unprofessional is probably the wrong term.

I'd just assumed that having to go through a similar, formal application/recruitment process as hires of all levels (from my own experiences), I expected them to be treated the same when receiving an employment offer, e.g. receipt of terms and conditions, and contract with X days to accept.

DS is definitely going to accept - he's had enough of completing applications, writing cover letters, doing online tests, interviews etc. - and wants to get back to being a full time student again (well until the summer anyway)

Well done to your ds @cyclingmum67 !
My ds still hasn't had any luck though he's continuing with applications.

I reply to everyone wanting a job even if a 16 year old from a local school as I think it is rude not to apply. However the AI and ease of application and submission in the last 2 years has turned a lot of recruitment into something different - firms getting many many many more applications and applicants able to apply with a few clicks for some jobs (not new graduate jobs including in my profession law where an application can take 2 days of work even just to get you to stage 1 of many stages).

May be AI will make it so easy to apply that it as easy as asking your father to have a word with the head of the company who then lets you have a job based on a nod as in the old days (same as with my mother's grandfather who would have got his job down the pit because his father and his father before him all worked there. Perhaps nothing really changes.

My sons had some friends at university (Bristol) who put so so much effort into getting various kinds of placements in banks etc. I remember one boy almost having a party when he got through to one scheme. We have never had so many people going to university and never had so m any people coming to the (UK 1.3m a year) so I think it is perfect storm of competition at present coupled with employers not wanting to take too many people on due to the last budget's NI changes etc

@Xenia I think your last para sums it up but university marketing has not kept pace with the realistic situation. When DD was at Bristol the DC also celebrated placements. They weren’t easy then either.

@cyclingmum67 well-done to your son. My DD who is a year ahead has found graduate job offers to be similar. One (Big 4) called her which she initially thought was a nice touch but was really to see if she'd accept offer (probably had other equally appointable candidates). Gave her a very short time (a day) to consider offer. Its not her 1st choice but was best so far so she accepted. Theyve been big on keeping in touch so i suspect many withdraw later (as my DD will do). They operate a waiting list too.

Can anyone recommend any practice aptitude test sites for engineering placements? I don't mind paying but ds failed one process because the practice that the company gave was nothing like what he actually had to do.

@foghead I can't recommend any practice tests but is your DS registered on:
Bright Network? my ds found it very useful and it gives some advice about how to be successful at these tests which your ds might be interested in: What is a Psychometric Test? Guide for Graduates | Bright Network
He can also try going on other company websites and practising the tests on there e.g Balfour Beatty Aptitude Tests: Practice Questions (2024).

Thanks @Shimy I'll have a look with ds.

My DD found that example tests were much easier than the real thing (some of the real tests got harder as you progressed). Does your DSes uni careers have test banks he can use to practise.

@foghead Atkins Realis give quite a few tips regarding their process for placements. Not sure if that includes the assessments, but worth a look.

Looking at all these posts which inevitablely feature large companies, does anyone ever look at SMEs? There seems to be a lemming like pull to large companies. There is another sector with a wealth of possibilities. They might not even have a barrage of tests!

I think the problem with SMEs sometimes is they're just not as visible as the larger companies e.g campus events. They also don't always advertise via the know grad. channels, so everyone ends up competing for the larger companies who can afford that sort of presence.