Some universities will go bust thread 2

[GinForBreakfast]

Continuing as thread 1 has filled up.

The Holylands are still notorious now. And yes, Paddy's Day is an interesting time there, unless you are a poor godforsaken local year round resident.

Interesting info, @Needmoresleep , DD has a couple of years yet before applying, so I'm starting to get to grips with the system. Thanks.

I think you need to bear in mind that A Level results don't necessarily correlate with ability, for lots of reasons. My dd and ds are similar ability, both good at humanities. Dd got A star,A,A at A Level and ds got BBC. He is an incredibly slow processor; despite his 25% extra time, he didn't complete more than 75% of any of his exam papers. He was very frustrated as he knew he could have answered all the questions well, and he got the equivalent of an A star on all the questions he answered. There are degrees which are 100% coursework - Theology for example at University of Nottingham. He could quite easily get a first on a degree that was all coursework with no time restraints. However, he'd probably end up at a lower ranked uni, if he decided to go.

It's very narrow minded to assume that young people with Bs and Cs are lower ability than those with As. I've also noticed in the workplace that often those with lower A Level results/those who've been to ex polys can out shine the RG graduates, appearing to be much smarter.

This is plainly true. It's not vogueish to say this in education now but everyone learns in different ways. School, with all its exams, doesn't even really prepare students for university style learning and assessment. (Bugbear of mine!)

Pretty local!
Without giving my location away too clearly - they are the same travelling time. Buckingham 10 minutes further.

Is @boys3 still about?

There are league tables for social mobility. Pretty sure Beds Uni is cream of the crop. Or was a few years back.

The Beds girl is doing an BEd if it makes a difference. She needs to be local.

Amongst Scottish students it was always a bit less favoured, to be honest, although that may have changed in more recent years. I went to a very academic school and most of my peers went to Glasgow or Edinburgh, a few to Aberdeen , Strathclyde and Stirling, and then a clutch of us south of the Border.

Also loans do make it possible for the less privileged to move away as does work opportunity.

Loans don't cover the cost of accommodation. There is an expected parental contribution but many parents can't afford to make this contribution therefore living at home is often the only option.

Because for some the choice isn't "RG or local", it's "local or none". Not everyone can go away for university.

(Also, RG is just a brand that has successfully positioned itself as a shorthand for "quality", and should be subject to critical review by students based on their personal circumstances).

I was the first cohort to go to Uni after the mass rebranding of Poly's into Unis. When we were applying they were still called Polys, but did degree courses with a lower entry tariff.

Having worked in the HE sector for 10 years, the Poly-Unis that seem to be faring best are those that found an employment niche and developed courses that aligned with the needs of industry - eg oil and gas engineering, land management etc. There are some really good offerings out there and I hope they survive the cost-cutting cull that is happening across HE.

Interesting article. Seems to say that loading more debt onto students is the path of least resistance for Labour. Will probably involve fiddling the loan terms to disadvantage high flyers and make them pay more.

So we will have able students who graduate and take demanding jobs subsidising second rate academics and students at second rate institutions, rather than consolidating/winding up those institutions, and focusing the government subsidies on the remaining institutions where the money better spent.

https://www.economist.com/britain/2024/09/17/the-broken-business-model-of-british-universities

MN hyperbole again. The loans usually do cover the rent and most living costs, if the student gets the maximum or near maximum maintenance loan.

Please name and shame "second rate academics", because I can name you plenty of coasters in your glorious RGs! Such ignorance!

@westisbest1982 think that depends on the area, some cities are really expensive to live in

@westisbest1982 money is not the only, and sometimes not even the most important factor tying a student to their home town. It's profoundly ignorant to ignore the multiple factors that affect social/geographic mobility, inequality and inclusion.

Errr, where have I ever referred to RG? For me they are a marketing group.

And yes, not every university is “first rate.”

MN hyperbole again. The loans usually do cover the rent and most living costs, if the student gets the maximum or near maximum maintenance loan.

Be aware that for the student to get the full maintenance loan, they need their parents to prove their low income - don't underestimate the number of arsehole parents who won't even do that, meaning their offspring can only get the basic loan.

There's always a few on MN aren't there - arguing their 18 year old is an adult and no longer needs any support.

So how do you separate out these second rate universities, which you have also referred to as second rate academics? What if you had a second rate academic at a first rate university....or is that not possible in your world?
And you do know there are all sorts of (flawed) metrics for measuring this stuff and all they can show is that it is very unclear where excellence lies. And we also know it is perfectly possible for brilliance to be killed off if the market in students does not exist ( eg chemistry at Hull, History at Oxford Brookes). Your cheap lines just do make sense of a complex reality.

Yes, why not go to Imperial? Yes, take up more loans! Just a room to rent can cost £900 per month in the south. DS is staying at home but he applied to any PT job he could find during the summer and was rejected by every single one. Looking back it was obvious as we haven't seen any 18 year olds employed in retail or waiting. Also cafes here either want people to work FT and don't emply 18 year olds.

The principal of KCL said in a pp's article that yes, they could raise fees to 12,500 but it would be a massive risk as many students would not be able to afford them and universities would basically have shot themselves on the foot.

The abve Economist article was interesting in that the average OECD was 67% funded by the government while the UK was only 25%. If the sector is too bloated to get funded like in other countries why don't they fund teaching more for example?

There was another article on the BBC where a plan 2 loan graduate had worked for 5 years in a well payed job, payed off 7,000 only for his loan to rocket from 44k to 54k. Interest rate over 7%. Another graduate's loan was more than 120k. She found it depressing and wished she had taken up a similar apprenticeship which would have paid her instead. The latest plan 5 loan also has incredibly high interest rates. 8% right now.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-interest-is-calculated-plan-5

So you are arguing that all are first rate and worth the burden on a public struggling with the highest tax burden in 70 years? No room to allow market failure yo winnow the wheat from the chaff; no go on orderly consolidations too; just keep paying up.

I’m seeing adolescents chasing degree apprenticeships and others heading over seas. But who cares, right? It’s just the margins, not a trend, won’t make any difference, huh?

And you do know there are all sorts of (flawed) metrics for measuring this stuff and all they can show is that it is very unclear where excellence lies.

The REF consistently demonstrates that there are what the panels have called “pockets of excellence” throughout the sector even in the post-92 groupings.

The REF is flawed but at the heart of it is peer review. Our research publications are read by our peers.

Unlike the TEF which is an almost completely box ticking and paper work assessment. It involves no observations of actual teaching.

Yes, so REF shows excellent by unit of assessment, ie subject area. Universities may be great at one thing in REF terms, but less excellent at another. Do we cut chemistry and law here, but keep French and electronics and Philosophy. Because if that is the rationale it is no longer a UNIversity and in fact optionality degrades for everyone.
I don't think the market should be a mechanism for deciding anything, btw. It always fails the end user.

Question: did anyone else end up over recruiting this year?
Our faculty panicked and did a huge recruiting push, lowered requirements in some programmes, now we have too many students and of course it is staff who will have to shoulder the workload.
It's not sustainable! There must be a better way to run things.

@westisbest1982 my DS is starting uni this month. His accommodation costs for the first year (including food) will exceed the maximum loan by nearly £2000. That doesn't include travel, socialising, phone etc.

@dreamingbohemian I teach at a lower ranking uni so we have the opposite problem. The higher ranking unis lowered their entrance requirements so we missed out on the students that would usually have come to us.

Talking to a colleague at RG uni today which massively over recruited. They have no idea how they will meaningfully teach. My place, not RG, but utterly brilliant, is very low in numbers. It is all so skewed.

There need to be consolidations and a much closer look at what’s offered.

Many dc can manage on max loan. They sometimes choose very expensive accommodation. London is a bigger issue but most unis do have cheaper rooms where rent and food don’t exceed the max loan.