Some universities will go bust thread 2

[GinForBreakfast]

Continuing as thread 1 has filled up.

Costs that don't apply to degree apprentices, or are typically less could include:

Module overheads - fewer/no optional modules per student therefore course materials, course admin is less
Typically less call on student support services - IT, living support, welfare
No bursaries offered
Far less careers support - employability advice, placements, foreign exchange etc. - they already have a job.
Less estates cost
Not typically targeted by marketing campaigns - open days etc.
Typically fewer issues around international admissions, visa etc.

Tripartite reviews - I do them all online!

Estates are another - very many degree apprenticeships are taught online or at employers' premises.

How does that reduce costs though? Your staff costs don't reduce just because you teach online or at another premises.

Unless you work for free this is a cost to the university which is above and beyond what is expected on a standard degree.

And you produce on-line materials for free? Host them on your free VLE? Have volunteer support staff to deal with the ESFA and IFATE, have external examiners volunteer rather than be paid, deliver the end point assessment in your free time? Wow!

Yes, but it's an hour, not half a day travelling back and forth.

You're not increasing your estates costs along with an increase in student numbers...

I was just pointing out that the cost profile of a DA is different to a full-time, on-campus one. No need for the snark.

DD is at York. Archeology. Possibly 4-5 hours a week of contact time, with it all accessible online. About 3 exams, 6 or so essays since Sept. She’s doing very well in everything but isn’t doing reams of reading when not in lectures. 2 meetings with a ‘supervisor’ since Sept. Accommodation has to be paid until the official end of term despite it finishing a month earlier.

I must be missing something because so far A Levels were way more testing, more work and more teacher input. Several friends have said ‘yeah, year 1 is shit really, doesn’t really count until second year’. She gets minimum loan and still hasn’t managed to get a job despite many many applications. I honestly feel this is a massive rip off, and wish the OU did more subjects. Not impressed one bit. Bloody loading our YP with debt - including rubbish interests, and paying for not very much!

@Kinkyroots
I agree that university is very expensive for what you get. It costs £4800 to educate students at A-level in a state school. They get 15 hours a week subject teaching if they do 3 A-levels or 20 hours if 4 subjects, they get 2 and half hours with a tutor per week plus careers talks and careers interviews for 39 weeks a year.

@Kinkyroots sounds like your DD could be making more of her time and opportunities...

Don't compare A Levels with university though. University is not school!

Are you still trying to directly compare schools and universities? You can't, they're totally different.

Let's take your example of careers support. Firstly, careers support in schools is woefully underfunded. A school based careers adviser is paid around half the salary compared to a university based careers consultant. And there usually just one person , if you're lucky they might buy in one or two additional days.
Secondly, students are not getting a careers interview or talk every week for 39 weeks. They're lucky to get one interview per year. The talks are generally given by employers - for free.

You're not increasing your estates costs along with an increase in student numbers...

No, but staff costs increase 🤷🏼‍♀️

Yes, but it's an hour, not half a day travelling back and forth.

But you're still expected to carry out more tripartite reviews that you are student tutorials. So it's still an increase in workload!

Absolutely. Students should be reading for a degree. I tell all my students at the start of year 1 that very nicely they won’t be spoon fed through the degree. That if they have a lecture on x topic it’s up to them to go away and do more reading/research on that topic. And that if they want good grades that’s what will help. Of course staff are there for help and advice if needed but again they need to be proactive in seeking that support.

She’s reading. But she isn’t paying to read. What is she paying for? If it’s the reading, she could do that at home, watch the lectures online?

Your point doesn’t address the cost to the individual vs what they get from the university. It also doesn’t address the cost of halls for time they aren’t in them - some of my DD’s friends finished 2 weeks ago, for the year! Still having to pay for halls for the ‘summer term’ for which there are no reasons for them to be there.

I’m not questioning how university works,I’m questioning why it costs so bloody much for them to teach themselves! As I said, my DD is doing well, flying through the few formally assessed things she’s been set. Doing it by herself. So, lecturers tell the YP they won’t be spoon fed - the reality is they’re not even getting frequent access to the food!

Which has happened and continues to happen...we have spent a significant amount of time 'rationalising the curriculum'. It's not great for the students though as it means they have much less choice as we've had to remove nearly all optional modules.

Indeed @ElaineMBenes .

• Students lose choice.
• Seminar & small group teaching is minimised
• Staff no longer teach to their specific research specialism - which is usually some of the best teaching students get & feedback suggests they appreciate this
• Staff have to mug up on content which is not usually in their broad field. So not only are students not given an insight into cutting edge knowledge, there's the risk they're taught by people who are not even general specialists in areas of the curriculum.

University is not school. We are part of the way that the UK creates new knowledge, and (particularly at research-led universities) this goes through into our teaching.

Well sadly universities are making a loss on a lot of courses, if the tuition fees had kept up with inflation maybe things would be different. Saying that when I was at uni in the mid 90s I had 4hrs of lectures and 4 hours of seminars a week so to me 15 hours a week sounds like a lot. 🤷‍♀️. It’s recommended that Students should spend 2 hours of independent study per hour of timetabled sessions which takes it up to 45 hours of work a week if she gets 15 hours timetabled. then time to write essays and revise and she has more than a full time week. Cambridge tell students to undertake 35 hours of independent study a week.

so she is paying to read, she’s paying for access to material, access to lecturers, general direction.

Students don’t see what 80% of their fees go on. It’s stuff like libraries and books and library staff, wellbeing staff and facilities, student services, accommodation team, marketing, student admin, all the rest of professional services. HR, finance, security, estates. Energy bills. Staff costs are massive, not helped by the recent NI rise. I get students and parents might not like it but that’s the cost of running a university.

leicester have broken it down here, it’s probably vaguely similar for most.

University of Leicester tuition fee expenditure

• Academic and teaching – 44%
• Student support – 16%
• IT and library – 15%
• Running the university – 12%
• Running the campus – 10%
• Scholarships – 4%.

So as a senior lecturer I’m timetabled to only teach 170 hours a year. Which sounds a crazy low amount of time but believe me I’m working 9 hours a day trying to keep up. It’s the non teaching which takes time, course admin, prepping sessions, answering student emails, meeting students, exam board prep, timetabling, admission stuff. The actual teaching is a small part of my job.

Sounds like the current set up isn’t working for anyone.

It isn't. It's shit.

It's shit for staff and for students. I'm not sure how long it can continue tbh.

I struggle to think were we go from here….

Archeology is probably not a great subject if you want a return on your degeee though @Kinkyroots Most people work that out. As others have said she’s getting more than just teaching. However she needs to look at volunteering if no paid job turns up. I’m assuming she’s looking in York. What about vacations? Summer jobs?

Correct. This is a systemic issue. Not the “fault” of universities and not easily solved.

UK universities spend more per student than any other country apart from I think the USA or Luxembourg. They need to think about where to cut costs. I believe that undergraduate fees are not entirely being used on educating them. Someone mentioned careers advice-I think as a consumer I would rather pay for this separately depending on my usage. I think universities need some accountants to go in and work out how the money is being spent because the figures don't add up to me or in fact most other countries.

The staff-student ratio is significantly more favourable in the U.K. compared to other countries, where teaching is typically delivered in very large groups and professors don’t know their students. Here, things tend towards teaching in smaller groups, staff being accessible to students, etc. There is also limited provision for pastoral matters, wellbeing, careers, etc, in other countries.

The staff-student ratio will be shifting now, through, given the mass redundancies in the sector, so that should be an improvement, eh?