Some universities will go bust thread 2

[GinForBreakfast]

Continuing as thread 1 has filled up.

I think they are already. Presumably to keep salaries low and costs down, it has been decided not to give UK residents priority when applying for a range of health care jobs in the NHS. Indeed almost the opposite as overseas applicants often have the support of employment agencies to help with job alerts, CV prep etc. Given UK salaries tend to be higher than in many countries outside the west, it is not unusual for overseas applicants to have far more experience and additional qualifications.

Good value for the taxpayer, except the tax payer has contributed over £300,000 for each medic who can't find a job.

It is a nightmare. DD only knows one F2 in her Deanery, ie a group of Trusts, who has got a training place. In this case to train as a GP. If we are not providing a career path for our own doctors, nurses, midwives and other HCPs we are going to have to hope that the ones we do recruit, choose to stay.

I agree that it is now difficult for UK trained students with medical degrees to get a junior doctor placement. It seems ridiculous given the money used to train them. UK trained students should be given some kind of advantage.

I just read this article on a graduate employer levy. This could be a solution to student debt.
It would mean that universities would have to match degrees to employer needs more, which I think is a good thing and it would take away the debt burden on students.
Universities would still need to reform and possibly less students would go to university as not all companies will be prepared to pay the extra levy for a graduate if they don't think the degree is worth it.

www.hepi.ac.uk/2024/04/11/graduate-employer-levy-a-practical-and-political-solution/

I agree.

At the end of the day education is rarely wasted. Things you learn and skills you acquire have a habit of coming in useful when least expected.

That said the world has become increasingly uncertain. A career may well not last a lifetime. It will be important to get into the habit of learning and of developing complementary strengths. Hard work, leadership, the ability to reason and to write well. Languages, whether MFL or computer. My advice would be to get the best degree you can, but to also focus on skills acquisition. Run a university society, take advantage of any free language classes, volunteer, gain work experience. Discover what you enjoy and build. Get experience whilst you can, because in a tight labour market, experience helps you land that first entry level job.

I suspect we may see more of a pattern of shorter term learning alongside periods of work.

DD did not expect that she and many of her peers would be facing unemployment. We apparently have a shortage of doctors but the NHS seems to be addicted to recruiting cheaper staff from overseas, and Boris' changes to the Resident Labour Market Test are proving disastrous. The maddest story I heard was of an entire graduating class of nurses unable to find work whilst staff from the local hospital went on a recruiting trip to the Philippines. Equally I just saw an advert trying to lure British doctors to work in South Africa when in parallel our hospitals are regularly hiring their African counterparts.

Her fall-back, initially in case she did not enjoy medicine, was to use her engineering intercalation and seek a job in the booming medical research sector in the Republic of Ireland (Galway sounded like Craic.) But it now looks as if Trump is putting paid to that.

It is so very tough for those leaving University now.

It is still abundantly clear that the majority by a long way get jobs as doctors. That is not remotely true of law grads or English grads. Yes, there are blips. In 5 years time we might have another shortage. It’s clear that DC are still falling over themselves to get on medicine degrees and they will get work. It’s not long before they can walk away to another country and it remains a degree where the vast majority will become doctors. Management within the NHS is another matter.

For those saying degree apprenticeships are an alternative to university btw. Please note that they are simply jobs with degree level training attached. You’re applying for a job, which as a school leaver, is always competitive. Don’t equate it with the university application experience. Availability will depend on the economy, not on how talented or high achieving a student is.

Not to mention that the 'degree' bit is delivered by a university. They are costly to run, more so than a standard degree in some cases. As more and more efficiencies are being made the harder it will be for universities to run them.

Loads are currently getting pulled at my uni due to costs and employers losing interest

Loads are currently getting pulled at my uni due to costs and employers losing interest

We've had to shelve some of our plans too due to costs. It's a real shame but we just don't have the staff to deliver them.

@ElaineMBenes Or the students to fill them in many cases. This is of course the biggest driver. Most businesses expend to meet a need and contract when the market changes. It’s what universities must do too. For the sake of students who need clarity.

DAs don't have to be costly to run, and the funding available varies per apprenticeship standard, unlike traditional undergraduate degrees.

The biggest driver for DAs is employers. Universities can't create DA places in the way they can create university places.

Or the students to fill them in many cases. This is of course the biggest driver. Most businesses expend to meet a need and contract when the market changes. It’s what universities must do too. For the sake of students who need clarity.

But this is never going to be a quick process. New courses take time to be develop and be validated. Apprenticeships have extra hoops to jump through too.
Closing courses doesn't always see an immediate saving as three year degree programme need 'teaching out'.

Yes, sorry when I say costs i mean that the decision to pull them due to costs is the employer deciding they’re too expensive for them to be involved in. Thats what I’ve been told, I’m not involved in the DAs and no clue how the funding works to be honest. So these are nhs apprenticeships and nhs trusts are having widespread recruitment freezes currently.

The funding for most is less that for a degree though. Not to mention that 20% is not released till the end.

employers losing interest

Employers in this country are woeful at investing in training staff. They assume that the State will train the highly expert workers they keep saying they can't find ...

There's one of the causes of the UK's productivity problems.

Agreed. I've a DC at both ends of university. One about to graduate and finding few grad schemes to apply for in her field (compared even to last year or the year before)

And one who is on a GAP year as they wanted a second chance to apply for degree apprenticeships, or even level 3 or level 4 apprenticeships with promises of career development afterwards or any entry job with some training and development involved. This year has looked more pitiful than last year, so she'll likely go to University instead and hope the picture looks better on 3 or 4 years. I don't know what school leavers are expected to do. I hear even trade apprenticeships are difficult to get these days.

@ElaineMBenesMany universities will need to develop a longer term plan for savings. Not starting courses is fairly instant. Amalgamating options and merging courses takes more time but over provision isn’t sustainable.

Yes the funding can be less, but the costs will be less as well!

Yes the funding can be less, but the costs will be less as well!

How are the costs less?

Not starting courses is fairly instant.
Not if it's an existing course with a year 2 and 3 to teach out.

Amalgamating options and merging courses takes more time but over provision isn’t sustainable.

Which has happened and continues to happen...we have spent a significant amount of time 'rationalising the curriculum'. It's not great for the students though as it means they have much less choice as we've had to remove nearly all optional modules.

How are the costs less? They do the same modules as standard students, the same assessments, they’re taught by the same lecturers, in the same space. Costs are more as there is a layer of extra back office stuff that has to happen for apprenticeships that doesn’t for standard students - monthly data returns, employer visits etc.

@fortyfifty That’s true but not in all fields of work. However students should be very aware of how difficult it is and how important it is to choose the right university and course. Jobs afterwards is why most choose to go to university. If there’s a real squeeze on jobs, young people do need to think carefully about next steps. I’d actually advise volunteering if a gap year is just for fun. It’s not always the best way to enhance skills and employers can think dc aren’t serious about working.

Degree apprenticeships cost more to deliver than standard degrees because of the huge administrative and compliance burden. It’s insane.It’s why the RG universities have largely avoided them unless it’s for a premium employer like PWC.

Absolutely and if employers want us to do all their work for them they should be contributing to costs.
We are losing more teaching time every year to making sure students know how to use the full suite of software, dumbing down assessments to have more PPT and presentations, we can't ban the use of AI because employers want graduates who know how to use AI.
Yes university should make you employable but employers are ridiculously demanding these days.

Acquisition costs are an obvious one. Estates are another - very many degree apprenticeships are taught online or at employers' premises.

University finances are fiendishly complex but (having worked in this area for many years) I can tell you that it's completely possible to deliver degree apprenticeships at better cost recovery margins than many undergraduate degrees.

That’s interesting, I always thought they cost more to run. Certainly at my uni they’re all taught on campus not at the employers workplace. Because surely you’d have students linked to multiple employers, you can’t go round delivering individual lectures to one or two people? Maybe some models are different? Then my colleagues talk about having to go to the employers workplace every 12 weeks for a tripartite interview which costs time and money.