To think that most degrees are a waste?

[Bellamari]

https://archive.ph/4PdgM

The author of the article has an undergraduate degree, two masters and a PhD. All totally useless in terms of getting a job.

I have to agree that the current high fees require students to consider education as an investment in a future job. They need to consider whether their degree will actually lead to a job - and if it doesn’t, then pick something else.

Schools and colleges (and society in general) are still telling people to “follow their passion”, but often this leads to an investment of 5-15 years and £50-150k, with no job at the end of it, and no time or money left to retrain in a field where there actually are jobs. PhDs in particular are a total waste considering the lack of jobs for most graduates.

Full disclosure - I’m one of those who was encouraged to follow my passion, do postgraduate degrees because I was so clever, and then left high and dry with no job prospects.

Depends on the degree. I did a RICS accredited degree, then my APC to be a Chartered Surveyor, and found work. These days I could just do a Surveying apprenticeship.

The people I know who did non vocational degrees have struggled.

This has been my experience with employers at just masters level. I can’t imagine how much worse they’d be if I had a PhD. I’ve been told numerous times that I’m over qualified for an entry level job and they don’t think I’ll engage with it and stick around.

If you look at my £70k+ a year public sector (very flexible) job description, I don't technically need the degree or postgrad I did to get here. But if you look at my career as a whole, I needed my degree to get onto the graduate traineeship that launched my career and help me get every job I ever applied for in my 20s, my postgrad got me into a niche sector that enabled me to triple my salary in less than 3 years. Now I am senior it's more about leadership and soft skills so theoretically my qualifications are unnecessary now, but in reality I wouldn't haven't got to this stage of my career by 35 without them.

I will be encouraging my children to think very carefully about their next choice after sixth form though, due to the expense I won't be very supportive of a degree "just because" without a plan of some sorts.

Why would you be going for entry level jobs with a masters or PhD.

Having either of those does not make you 'unemployable' as you stated?

@ElaineMBenes it depends on the job, we get a lot of graduates in the civil service that try to apply for higher grade jobs but without work experience a graduate, even with a masters, is usually entry level.

I implore anyone studying to get a job in the holidays or alongside their studies, better yet related voluntary work (a privilege, I know), having read through hundreds of applications it is very difficult to demonstrate good competencies from studying alone, and even if the role hugely relies on the qualification, work experience sets candidates apart.

What work experience does someone with with a degree MA and PhD have?

That's why they go for entry level jobs.

The Plan 5 loan repayment scheme is an absolute scandal and will lead to people paying many multiples of the actual cost of their student borrowing. It would be considerably cheaper to take out a commercial loan.

That is why I wouldn’t blindly encourage anyone to do a degree now. You will be paying back hundreds a month when you are earning relatively little (£50k is not a great salary to be paying nursery fees, a mortgage and living costs out of if they’ve already taken hundreds of pounds of student loan repayment out of it).

I feel sad for the young people in this country. Student loans with an inflated interest rate are so unfair. Young people are being advised to take as high a loan as possible and not worry about it. They are conditioned to accept a huge life long debt as normal. I agree that in light of the high uni fees it's important to make an astute decision about the university course choice. I'm a uni graduate (MA in English Studies). My time at uni was very enjoyable and character building but completely useless and didn't help me get employment at all. I was fortunate to study for free though and at least I didn't end up in debt. My advice for my DD is to explore degree apprenticeships and study abroad.

What work experience does someone with with a degree MA and PhD have?

Lots of MAs include placements. Students on an MA or PhD should realise that they need to factor in some practical experience alongside a qualification..... and I say that as someone who had both a PhD and masters.
Employers expect some experience from UG graduates, why should it be any different for a postgraduate graduate?

I'm suprised the banks haven't caught on to this and offered students loans that are competitive. Once they are on the hook they can then be offered other financial products when they leave uni and get a job

Bellamari

Can't you down play your qualifications to get an entry level job ? Or maybe go through an agency ?

Your post is bit 'know your place'...

Education is more than just about getting a job.

With your logic it implies that the 'little people' should only study specific subjects while the wealthy can enjoy studying things like Art, history, design, fashion, philosophy, politics...

We really need to rethink higher education. The rot started when universities became acting as businesses and with students having to pay ridiculously high fees.

It massively reduces opportunities and choice for many students whose parents don't have massive incomes.

We are all the poorer as a society when we imply that young people should stick to studying to be accountants or lawyers.

We also need people with creativity and other skills and people from lower income families also being able to study what they want to study.

I always think that it is a very Tory thing to do: making sure that people don't study specific topics so they don't start getting too well educated and being able to question the status quo...

I do agree with the thesis, but not in the sense you mean.

I think that, if you are academically able, it is well worth continuing study to degree level, regardless of money, and all good degrees qualify you for good jobs.

OTOH, people struggling with A levels shouldn’t be doing degrees. If you are not getting a minimum of AAB, you really shouldn’t be thinking of a degree (of course there are exceptions, but as a general rule).

It is a total waste of time attempting degree level study, if you can’t master basic A level work.

People would be far better getting a job or apprenticeship, which would help them and the National GDP.

No more than 10-15% of the population should be doing degrees, which would allow the government to support the few who should.

My degree (social science) and subsequent quals, has meant I've had relatively easy, interesting, though averagely paid jobs. It helped me work abroad and have adventures. It helped to develop skills that I've used constantly.
I feel lucky to have had that, and I definitely support my DC in doing it too.
But, yes of course many people have nice lives without degrees etc.

I think this must very much depend on the sector. I’m now doing a job the advert said needed an HNC for (public sector). I have 2 masters, a PG diploma and a PG cert. Most people above the lowest tier here have a (related to the job) degree anyway and I don’t get the impression the level of qualification you have is perceived as making you more likely to want to move on. My boss at one point was doing a part-time PhD in the subject area in which he works (gave it up as too much work). . OTOH DH has a STEM phd which wasn’t really helping him, he felt it made his strongest skill set look a bit niche and he ended up doing a masters in another STEM direction that was weakly related (he didn’t have the ideal STEM degree to base the masters off but it was enough) and he’s worked in that profession now for 20+ years. He doesn’t use his Dr title at work because he says his Phd isn’t relevant.

Absolutely all of this
I have a dd studying economics at university.
When she was studying for A levels she did a lot of research into an economics degree and looked at what methods/ schemes could be used to facilitate a career in investment banking.
She looked at investment banks who were running schemes focused on ‘widening participation’ and were keen to increase the number of women in banking .
In her first year she applied for Spring Break placements whereby students are given the opportunity to do a few days taster sessions at investment banks. As a result she was offered a Summer internship which is likely lead to a graduate role with an excellent salary
She knows many students who didn’t even know that these schemes existed

Any degree from a top university - even if in a non vocational subject such as theology, classics, is a route to good employment.

If you have a 2.1 from Oxbridge in your "passion" subject you can go into government, law, accounting, business, management consultancy and any number of graduate fast track schemes.

It's the university that matters not the subject.

(Obviously you can't become a doctor or a vet or a computer scientist if you haven't done the relevant degree).

So you don’t have a doctorate, and are extrapolating based on feeling overqualified with an MA/MSc? What kind of ‘entry level’ jobs are you applying for, and what experience dod you have? It sounds to me as if you’re targeting the wrong type of job.

I’m an academic, but have taken time out when being a trailing spouse, and had no difficulty finding work in journalism and arts admin. The people I know with doctorates who aren’t academics, just off the top of my head, work in museums as curators, in commercial archaeology, libraries, opera, art restoration, teaching (some schools want a doctorate for head of subject positions — someone I knew as a postgrad is subject head at Eton), academic or arts administration. One works in US theatre as a dramaturge. Another one who did art history is curator for a stately home’s private art collection.

i think we need to move away from univeristy being the end goal of school. It used to be only for the academically gifted. i was the first person to go to uni in my family in the 90s. now everyone seems to go studying subjects that absolutely have very little value and get into debt for it.

We need skilled workers in uk, there's a lot of lost teenagers that can fill this gap if only they were given value. getting 10 level 9s in subjects such as philosophy and performing arts is absolutely useless unless you are going to do something with it.

a lot of employers now have to blind recruit and are not allowed to employ based on name of university.

@hangingonfordearlife1

Yes, some employers maybe. But I doubt the most prestigious fast track grad schemes are "universities blind" in any real way.

And in any event, it will be obvious if the CV shows that the candidate got A star, A star, A for A level and that at uni they rowed for their "college" boat club or were secretary of their college history society.

My PhD involved working with industry and I was part-funded by an organisation. So by the end of three years I had essentially had a whirlwind introduction to managing huge consultancy projects on my own. It also enabled me to gain a professional qualification in my field at the same time because that required on the job experience.

Depends on the subject. I think there is an issue of over supply of PhDs in the humanities/arts. And I think Universities should be honest about career expectations.

https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/revealed-the-uk-university-courses-with-the-highest-paid-graduates-082024

Timely article

There’s an over supply of grads. The IFS says that outside of London, 42% of grads don’t get graduate level work. In other words, a school leaver could do it. For many grads, it’s clearly not worthwhile financially.

It was the Conservatives who expanded the unis by the post 92 changes to HE. It was the conservatives who lifted the cap on uni admissions in 2013/14. These two decisions plus lots of work to get deprived dc to uni and making sure we had vast numbers of pupils getting A grades has totally changed the graduate landscape. Except the grad jobs are not there throughout the country but if we get economic growth they might be. Many dc would be better off being electricians ! Definitely planners and jobs in demand.

Taking the right degree at the right uni is what matters now. If you don’t need to earn because you have low bills, great. However young people without good jobs are struggling. It’s now imperative to look at money or it’s living with mum and dad for years and years.