To think that most degrees are a waste?

[Bellamari]

https://archive.ph/4PdgM

The author of the article has an undergraduate degree, two masters and a PhD. All totally useless in terms of getting a job.

I have to agree that the current high fees require students to consider education as an investment in a future job. They need to consider whether their degree will actually lead to a job - and if it doesn’t, then pick something else.

Schools and colleges (and society in general) are still telling people to “follow their passion”, but often this leads to an investment of 5-15 years and £50-150k, with no job at the end of it, and no time or money left to retrain in a field where there actually are jobs. PhDs in particular are a total waste considering the lack of jobs for most graduates.

Full disclosure - I’m one of those who was encouraged to follow my passion, do postgraduate degrees because I was so clever, and then left high and dry with no job prospects.

This is correct - and plenty of non-stem research roles outside academia.

Just think about what AI is - it's a large language model.

Or think about all the online "chat' being monitored and it's pretty obvious that knowledge of languages and communication will be rather useful.

The author of that article did French (did she really need four degrees in it)? She was incredibly naive to think she'd them walk into a job that necessitated that amount of learning in that one subject.
There are plenty of careers out there that didn't need degrees but now that more people are getting them who would you employ? It's too easy to say 'degree required' in the job description when really three years experience (which n any job) would be far better. And graduate training schemes where it doesn't matter what the degree is just that you have one? Why? A person who has been steadily working for the equivalent university years has had to developed organisational and dedication, perseverance, budgeting and other skills. I'm not talking about schemes that require specialty knowledge, but how does a degree in English qualify you for a job as a buyer at Tesco? By the way I did do a vocational degree and wouldn't have got my job without it. But it in no way helped me actually DO the job.

I think a lot of degrees are too much debt for the income they will command in the workplace. For example - social work and teaching.

Yes, I came on to say this too, as a law firm partner still happily recruiting non-law graduates! The structure and name of the course changed but it is still very much available to all graduates.

Definitely not a waste if you enjoy studying and are interested in your subject

I think no degree is a waste but the 'you have to go to uni or your life is over' idea is ridiculous

Whilst I agree to some degree 🤣

I probably more agree with PPs saying the main point of a degree is to learn how to learn and apply yourself.

I could switch this on its head and say why are expecting someone to give you a job anyway? If no one will give you one. Why can’t you create your own.

I think we downplay the growth experiences getting a job at 18 can provide. I went to
uni because I thought I should but most of the senior management where I work now worked from school and studied for degrees related to the industry later while working. For some, time at university helps with intellectual and personal grow but for others it can be a period of anxious chaos where a more supervised and structured environment in a junior work role might be better for confidence.

There are established PhD pathways into non-academic but research-based jobs. Lots of PhDs go into R&D for companies, or public policy, or pedagogical research areas for education depts., or intelligence and analysis areas. Just a few examples.

I actually agree. That many of them. Am quite a fan of the uni experience in itself as a whole, but some of the subjects seem weak.

If that’s the case then why are they accepting 10x more students than there are jobs? People are doing PhDs because they want to be academics, but only a small percentage ever get a job. Realistically one professor needs to train one student as a replacement - not 100.

But there are also a lot of ‘academic adjacent’ jobs and careers that people with PhDs move into. I work for a think tank type organisation where lots of people in policy and research roles have PhDs in relevant social science subjects.

No degree is a waste. You learn so many valuable things, how to study and achieve, depth in a subject, a love of learning, time management etc and most importantly critical thinking which most people appear to lack these days

It's true though, and I agree entirely.

3 years + out of your life and a heap of debt for it not to lead to any kind of job is questionable in terms of benefit.

An old school friend comes to mind. She did a degree in French (like the person in the article). Then does an expensive post grad course in archives and records management after doing some very low paid or voluntary work experience.

After this archives post grad the work she got included a 3 month post cataloguing digitised records. A permanent job was an archivist role in a performing arts venue , not well know. It was 2 days a week with a pro rata salary of less than £10,000 pa. So you need to have multiple jobs sometimes if you can get them.

Jobs in archives are few and far between and they are poorly paid & often part time or contract.

There's little point doing education in its own right if it doesn't lead to a job with a decent wage. The fact is people can't live on thin air.

Needless to say she doesn't do archives anymore. Didn't use her French degree as native speakers tend to be preferred. She did another degree IT based for beginners and didn't get anywhere with that. She's now late 30s. I don't know what she does now.

Do a degree that will train you for a profession that exists and pays well or don't bother.

None of this is true.

It feels like you personally have a negative view of education and are trying to justify it, but the things you write are not based on anything concrete.

I think the days of university as a sort of academic 'finishing school' - a supported way of leaving home and enriching your life experience - are over. It is too expensive for most people.

It is quite common in Europe to go to.your local university and continue living at home. There is no reason why that shouldn't be more common in the UK.

Just as working for a while then going back to study, or working part time and studying as well should become more normalised.

Having a well educated workforce is important, but that is different from the traditional UK route of school to university for some, and everyone else drops by the wayside

If that’s the case then why are they accepting 10x more students than there are jobs? People are doing PhDs because they want to be academics, but only a small percentage ever get a job. Realistically one professor needs to train one student as a replacement - not 100.

True. And even undergraduate degrees are often excessively focused on developing skills that are only useful to academics, with the assumption that the natural next step is a masters/doctorate. And I'm talking about second- & third-division universities here, not just the research big-hitters.

But, to turn the question around, why are students so dim that they can't work out that far too many people do PhDs for the chance of their getting anything beyond a couple of short-term postdoc roles to be anything beyond tiny?

The reason academics train so many PhD students is that they have to do so to get promoted, and often have to to retain their own jobs. Academic careers are full of perverse incentives, most notably that career advancement usually depends on doing as little teaching as possible.

You can actually take university degrees on the subject of the Harry Potter books/movies... This isn't a slang, this is an actual degree.

No, you can't .

This was debunked as a silly bit of anti arts degrees nonsense.

Maybe a module. Not an undergraduate degree.

I disagree. I did an English degree and got onto a graduate scheme then did a masters while working which was focused on the industry I’m in. My job requires that I have both qualifications. It’s the skills that you develop while completing a degree that are important. Can’t comment about PhDs though.

Where are you getting your misinformation from?

This is my opinion too. I’m seeing a lot of younger people choosing routes into employment such as apprenticeships, instead of degrees. Or they’re going for degree apprenticeships where they work alongside doing a part time degree. It’s less risky than investing money in a degree and hoping a job materialised at the end of it.

I agree that university has general life benefits for the individual. But as you say, it’s now become too expensive to be considered as just an experience and a finishing school that prepares you for the world. If we as a society consider the experience to be important in a non-job sense then it should be free.

It’s important to note that in many parts of Europe it’s free to go to university. People stay at home because they aren’t getting funding or loans, but they also aren’t paying anything.

thetab.com/uk/durham/2022/10/06/durham-university-actually-once-had-a-harry-potter-module-50804

This is where the fake news came from, propagated largely by the delightful Andrea Jenkyns.

This is my opinion too. I’m seeing a lot of younger people choosing routes into employment such as apprenticeships, instead of degrees. Or they’re going for degree apprenticeships where they work alongside doing a part time degree. It’s less risky than investing money in a degree and hoping a job materialised at the end of it.

Except there aren't huge numbers of degree apprenticeships and the entry requirements are often very high.

They're so expensive for universities to run that it's just not viable to set up as many as we'd like.

It’s a total waste of time for one thing. But even worse, it makes the student unemployable in a normal job. There’s a lot of discrimination against PhDs - you’ll be insubordinate because you’re more qualified than the boss, you’ll think you’re always right and cleverer than others, you’ll outshine others (and no interviewer wants that), you won’t be satisfied with a lower salary and won’t stick around long, you won’t be engaged by the work and will get bored, etc.

As someone who is works with higher education careers services I can say that this is complete bollocks