To think that most degrees are a waste?

[Bellamari]

https://archive.ph/4PdgM

The author of the article has an undergraduate degree, two masters and a PhD. All totally useless in terms of getting a job.

I have to agree that the current high fees require students to consider education as an investment in a future job. They need to consider whether their degree will actually lead to a job - and if it doesn’t, then pick something else.

Schools and colleges (and society in general) are still telling people to “follow their passion”, but often this leads to an investment of 5-15 years and £50-150k, with no job at the end of it, and no time or money left to retrain in a field where there actually are jobs. PhDs in particular are a total waste considering the lack of jobs for most graduates.

Full disclosure - I’m one of those who was encouraged to follow my passion, do postgraduate degrees because I was so clever, and then left high and dry with no job prospects.

Oh, don't introduce facts into this thread!!!

This is an anti-facts zone.

Who needs experts? Down with degrees!

I agree with this. Higher Education isn't about training for a job it's about education and learning fir learnings sake. I don't think that is ever a waste of time.
And how can anyone say that without a degree they would have still got the same job? Often a job isn't directly related to someone's degree but the other skills and confidence that university gives someone definitely do help.

Yabu.

DS wants to be a hydroengineer which will require a bachelor's and a master's to become a Chartered Engineer.i His degrees won't be valueless, they are a necessity.

My degree is more woolly, a bachelor's in Business. It's given me access to 40 years of well paid and interesting career, 35 of which were in higher rate tax bracket.

I don't see how a degree can ever be valueless. Everything I learnt is useful.

I don’t agree with it. My son would not have his job if not for his degree. There is no other route except via a grad scheme. However, I do agree that it can be difficult to find a job in some over saturated areas. But a degree can still open pathways, even ones that seem unrelated. It’s just not the only way.

There is a lot of value in undergraduate degrees.

Not least that many well paying jobs require you be to be a graduate - you either need to go in as a graduate on a scheme or similar or you'll hit a point where you cannot progress further without a degree.

Law, economics, physics, chemistry, engineering, computer science are all degrees that are immediately relevant to jobs.

Humanities and languages degrees are less obviously vocational but will get you into graduate roles.

Post graduate degrees such as masters or phds are a different kettle of fish. Masters are often done either to specialise or to move fields (eg law post grad, medicine post grad).

PhDs in stem subjects can lead into non-academic jobs in industry - space science, chemical engineering etc. I know a lot of people with PhDs in those types fields and their phds were needed to get their jobs.

It depends what you mean by "a waste" though.
If the young person has enjoyed their degree course, grown as a person, learnt new skills and discovered things they like and don't liike, is that a waste?

There are an awful lot of people (for example) that spend a small fortune on hobbies for the sole reason that they enjoy them. Is this also "a waste"?

But most young people don't really study because they have some huge passion. They study at uni because they are told they have to get a degree to be employable and to have the uni experience

@Bellamari

If that’s the case then why are they accepting 10x more students than there are jobs? People are doing PhDs because they want to be academics, but only a small percentage ever get a job. Realistically one professor needs to train one student as a replacement - not 100.
But that's just notvcorrect

There are PhD holding scientists working in the NHS. PhD mathematicians in finance and PhD psychologists treating patients.

It's not all for academia

I'm not sure this is actually the case now. My DC are 20 and 18 and in their cohorts the message was certainly that they only went to university if they really loved the subject, or specifically needed the qualification to progress in a chosen career.

The cost of university is a huge factor. Also there were a fair number of students taking years out, or simply choosing to work for a while, while they considered whether they wished to go to university at all. Maybe in more affluent families there is still a push to go to university " for the experience" but most people are more mindful of the pros and cons.

I think it depends what you study, how well you do, and where the degree can take you. My son did Finance and Economics and graduated 5 years ago I think it's served him really well and so does he. DH and I both did a STEM degrees (we met at Uni) and they have also served us well. No way any of the 3 of us would have the jobs or salaries we have without a degree.

Think how much people spend just drinking regular amounts on nights out across a lifetime!

Not sure why she thinks you can’t do a law conversion? Lots still do. You don’t technically need a law degree or conversion to be a solicitor anymore but most firms still require them.
Dc’s friends off this time to uni are a mix of more career focused eg medicine, law, nursing and rest subjects they enjoy classics, history, chemistry etc.

Graduate Outcomes data would disagree.

We need to move away from the idea that you study a degree and get a job that is directly related to that degree. That's not the reality of the graduate labour market.

I agree . What's the alternative? You can't get an adult rate of pay until you are 21 . You don't have to repay the loan until you are earning a certain amount . I think people who do arts degrees such as drama and dance have figured this out . Why not have a good time away from your parents learning to stand in your own two feet .

The IFS study is interesting because although it shows that 4 in 5 people do get a financial benefit, it does seem some don't. But it doesn't really explain if their life is richer/more fulfilling in other ways.
I dont want to be naive and pretend you can live of air, but perhaps a man into art might be earning less than if he worked in construction without a degree but is quite happy with the situation.

It also doesn't explain about degree level qualifications. I dont have a degree but I do have professional qualifications. I dont know if I am included with those who only have gcses, for instance. Do degrees add as much value over those educated in different ways.

Are other countries so negative about Higher Education? I get the impression in some countries higher education is seen as a good thing. But yes, we should definitely encourage young people to finish their education as young as possible in this country. We don't want them getting ideas above their station.

Indeed. The majority of our doctoral students are not planning on an academic career, and it's been a fairly long time since many of them assumed they would. Nobody has enticed them in the door with the promise of jobs that don't exist.

Our doctoral programmes (humanities) stress transferable skills, and acknowledge that after submission, the PhDs are unlikely to be working in academia. In Ireland there are no undergraduate fees, and the majority of our research students are funded, by individual scholarships from the research councils, or by working on funded, larger-scale projects. They see it as essentially an interesting, self-directed starter job in a portfolio career, one that leaves them with a qualification, an area of expertise, and whatever research and other skills they have picked up on the way. There are also an increasing number of people who work in university admin doing research degrees part-time.

It depends on how you measure success. Is it who earns the most a year after graduation, is it the one who is most likely to work in their chosen profession within a year, is it the one who says they feel emotionally enriched and socially improved by the experience? Is it the person who ends up paying the most tax? The degree that helps give a job that the employment market has the biggest gap in? Is it the degree that gives the most profit to the university?
It's a waste if the person who does it thinks/finds it's a waste. That's pretty much what it boils down to.

What is a 'Harry Potter degree'?

This is very true.

University is not just about the degree. It is so much more for some teenagers.

It is far more complex than just getting a job at the end of it.

I think studying for the sake of studying is a luxury for many, most people need to start earning at some point. I do like the idea of people studying for the sheer joy of it though, I’m sure most don’t regret it even if they don’t end up very employable. i do think though theres been a bit of an arms race a degree is a minimum, I’ve known people go on to do a masters purely to improve their cv.

There's some good info here about the cost of education in other countries.

https://www.finder.com/uk/current-accounts/student-bank-accounts/cheapest-countries-to-study-europe

I find it hard to imagine a peacetime country that's more hostile to young people than this one. From education costs to housing, to today's refusal to even consider giving them back the right to travel and work in Europe - what sort of future are we offering them.

You only have to look at a few Mumsnet threads to see the attitude some people have to the country's future:

Don't build houses because it will spoil my view, you can't have freedom to live in Europe because I don't like foreigners, you have to pay more tax so I can we need more people to be labourers, you can't protect the environment because I want to drive everywhere........

Oops, a whole section got missed there! Should have been.....

Don't build houses because it will spoil my view, you can't have freedom to live in Europe because I don't like foreigners, you have to pay more tax so I can hand down a massive inheritance to MY kids, don't go to univeristy because we need more people to be labourers, you can't protect the environment because I want to drive everywhere........

what happened to the perspectives of the enlightenment age and learning to learn to increase ones knowledge and understanding of different subjects etc ?