Some universities will go bust

[GinForBreakfast]

Reported in the Times today. It must be so worrying for students joining or returning in September/October.

My question is around the regulator, who knows where the issues are. What should they be telling students and when? It seems cruel, especially to young people, to withhold information. It has financial implications as well - people moving, paying deposits etc.

The current HE model is dying!

Students to find their own placements? Most do from what I have seen. Very few available and lies told about availability all the time!

@boys3 I think your list proves the point about mostly low tariff unis. The IFS ranks many of those as Q4 or Q3 . Q4 is lowest tariff unis. Clearly some are not!

Telling the Home Office if any overseas visa holders don't turn up.

More FoI responses.

More data returns.

More regulation.

I meant for my local uni

Students to find their own placements? Most do from what I have seen.

Again, this benefits students who are from wealthy backgrounds and those with connections. And is just not how it works anymore.
Certain groups of students find this very challenging too. Some students need additional support with this.

Research (that word again!) shows that students who engage in a placement have better graduate outcomes. This means there is a huge benefit to the students and the university to have structured placement opportunities.

Placement teams don't just match students to placements either! They liaise with employers and industry to source appropriate placements which aligns with the course portfolio of a department.
Placements are often competitive so they premiere students for that process.
They conduct placement visits to check on the student and the employer.

Looks like I over estimated - the core offering is around 4.5k, once 'widening participation, 'marketing, 'chancellors', 'sports facilities' etc. are removed.

I love the idea of one lecturer delivering all the content for their subject for the entire country 🤣🤣🤣

Clearly that poster has no knowledge of research led teaching! I'm an expert in x and my counterpart at a different is an expert in y, so we will teach the same subject in very different ways. And this is why prospective students should look carefully at the research profile of the faculty not just nss scores.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you. I used to work in a medical school. I can tell you that organising placements for students on any degree involving healthcare needs a huge amount of organisation and it can't be done on the cheap. There is absolutely no question of the students arranging it themselves. These courses are highly regulated so the university has to have detailed agreeements with all the different NHS Trusts and GP surgeries taking their students. Criminal records checks, occupational health, personal tutors all needed as well. These are tough courses and students need a lot of support to get all the way through them with their physical and mental health intact so they can progress to a career in health, as we would all want.

Still need a student rota to clean those lecture theatres and labs though. And no one to maintain that equipment.

I mean how do you think those things are going to be paid for? Where is that money coming from?

When you buy are car or a tin of tomatoes do you really think the cost only pays for the car or tomatoes? That Vauxhall or Nestle don't have infrastructure costs that they pass on to the consumer?

For goodness sake, you're just embarrassing yourself now. What huge complex organisation in the country doesn't have a Chief Executive? That's what the vic-chancellor of a university is. We can have a discussion about whether they're paid too much, but it's not a trivial job.

@ElaineMBenes Why? I don’t afree students from poorer backgrounds cannot do anything for themselves. Why do we infantalise them?

Anyone with intelligence can have a go? It’s nothing to do with money. You don’t buy a placement! It’s applying intelligence and finding out what to do. If you cannot even try, a course with a placement is the wrong choice. None are obligatory. Unis maintain lists of employers and it’s up to students to apply but they would also have to look for a job in the same way. Placements aren’t always of huge benefit anyway! Depends on the employer.

Well when I hire a building those costs are accounted for - so yes, cleaning the pro-rata usage the students use of course - but not other parts.

I did an applied science degree and I'm not sure I encountered that much equipment. there was plenty around, but not for undergraduates to play with.

Placements, yes, should be done by self, library books almost irrelevant, all on-line or purchased even 20 years ago. No MH support required, just use other services same as public. IT is very easy, so yes. Of course finance cam be em ployed - doesn't need more than a handful of staff though for thousands of students. Open days largely do use students from what I see.

So, compared to a 6th form college, given less contact time, say for a typical politics students - 16 hours per week, why is uni more expensive to fund?

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Do you think medical schools are the only courses with placements? How insular and poorly informed you are!

Looks like I over estimated - the core offering is around 4.5k, once 'widening participation, 'marketing, 'chancellors', 'sports facilities' etc. are removed.

Without marketing and WP how are you going to recruit any students?
Who will organise the open days? Visit schools and colleges for free to advise students on student finance, UCAS applications, personal statements and help potential applicants understand the difference between all the various courses on offer and their entry requirements??

Far from it. Nursing, physiotherapy, nutrition and dietetics, pharmacy, optometry, occupational therapy, teaching, social work, dentistry, veterinary science, clinical and other forms of postgrad psychology training - they all have placements as an integral part of the course, as well as medicine, and they all need to be organised and monitored.

Why? I don’t afree students from poorer backgrounds cannot do anything for themselves. Why do we infantalise them?

It's not infantilising to understand that particular groups of people might need additional support and resources. First generation students are navigating a landscape that is unfamiliar to them, often without the cultural and social capital of a student who comes from a family where higher education is the norm.

Anyone with intelligence can have a go? It’s nothing to do with money. You don’t buy a placement!

No, but some placements are unpaid and therefore very challenging for a student without any financial support.
A placement team at a university can advise of other sources of income or alternative placement which will still benefit the student.

It’s applying intelligence and finding out what to do. If you cannot even try, a course with a placement is the wrong choice.
A placement team doesn't do it all for the student but they support both the student AND the employer.

None are obligatory.

Wrong!!

There are lots of courses where a placement is a mandatory part of the course..... teacher training, medical and health related courses for example.
I run a course which requires a placement. You cannot pass unless you complete a certain number of days in a formal placement. Some students do source their own but others need help. Particularly international students who don't have connections or perhaps don't understand the UK job market.

Unis maintain lists of employers

And who collates this list? And vets the employer to ensure they are suitable?

and it’s up to students to apply but they would also have to look for a job in the same way.

We have careers and employability teams to support with this......

Placements aren’t always of huge benefit anyway! Depends on the employer.

Which is why it's important to monitor the quality of placements and you need staff to do that!!

Open days largely do use students from what I see.

lol. Who employs, trains and organises the students though?
Who organises rooms, catering, car parking?
Promotes the event and creates and monitors the CRM system?
Organises the programme of talks and activities and ensures they are staffed appropriately?
Who prints the programmes and organises registration desks and staff to look after these?

It seems you think these things happen by magic!

Some vocational courses have obligatory placements. Others with a year in industry are a choice. I don’t quite see why students need so much handholding and it is treating them like dc. Why do you think being better off makes students better at getting on with their placements? What have these got to do with their parents? We seem to have far too many who aren’t capable of uni going on the courses.

The restaurant industry is by no means a dying industry, but restaurants fail everyday.

The HE industry is fine, but there are some weak universities which are not okay.

I doubt the cleaners and grounds keepers are “staff”. These would typically be outsourced contracts.

Haven’t read the last few pages. But being better off means students aren’t trying to hold down part time jobs which may be very difficult to do alongside placements.

Surprisingly they aren't outsourced, they are internal facilities and estates staff.

Really? You can't understand that a student from a family with a history of higher education and parents in professional jobs might find it easier to from both a cultural and social capital perspective?
It's not about handholding or young people not being suited to university, it's an understanding that not everyone will have the knowledge, understanding or experience required to be successful in a finding a placement. It's about levelling the playing field.
The student still has to apply and be successful in the application process and be competent while on placement. They just might need support to get started.

I am surprised that you are so oblivious to the barriers to social mobility that placement support seeks to address. Equating it to being childlike is crass.

I doubt the cleaners and grounds keepers are “staff”. These would typically be outsourced contracts.

Nope. They are employed directly by the university where I work. Most have been there decades.

Well, I suspect these are things you are choosing to do. Don't visit schools and advise, simply let the students get on with it. The universities aren't hidden - in reality you're trying to compete for students to get their money - its not for their benefit.

Good motivated students don't have a problem identifying universities, I even managed it 25+ years ago. Schools can advise on all of the above, and lets face it the information is easily available. Kindly, if you need this level of help, you're not uni material - use it as part of selection to ensure people have basic life skills.

I was the first of my family to go to uni - didn't get any of these visits, didn't need these services you indicate, could open and manage a bank account and apply for grants, took 4 years of courses along with 100+ other students and we all left (if we passed the years) at the end with various grades, applied for jobs and started careers.

I did visit on open days, and yes did a few pointless interviews - the interviewing tutor at the uni I chose also thought they were pointless, just offered me two E's and went on my way.

Maybe just treat 18 year olds as adults, and allocate choices based on grades?