Some universities will go bust

[GinForBreakfast]

Reported in the Times today. It must be so worrying for students joining or returning in September/October.

My question is around the regulator, who knows where the issues are. What should they be telling students and when? It seems cruel, especially to young people, to withhold information. It has financial implications as well - people moving, paying deposits etc.

This is why something like the American community colleges sound like a good idea where credits are gained locally and then students can choose to apply to a more prestigious college elsewhere to get their bachelor's degree. Some young people need more of a stepping stone system whereby they start off in the home university and then move on to a (probably) better, further away University. Our system is so inflexible and success still leans too heavily towards the middle class, confident, well connected student.

Of course it was different in the 1970s compared to now. A much, much smaller percentage of the population went to university and it was unusual for lower socioeconomic/working class/first in family to go to university. There were a smaller number of universities to choose from so you'd move to study because you had to.

I went to university in the late 90's and the majority of us stayed local - this was a deprived northern town.

'Consumer information' didn't exist because students weren't paying tuition fees.

When the tuition fees were increased to £9k in 2012 there was also a requirement for universities to provide Key Information Sets (KIS) so that students could make informed decisions about what they were 'purchasing'.

Why not meet other people you aren’t familiar with? Why only want to be in your own bubble?

Not all young people are confident enough to leave their bubble and mix with people who are not like them. Cultural capital is key to understanding this.

This has become such an interesting thread now. @boys3 I am, as ever, grateful for your statistical breakdown and analysis, but I think in this particular instance, London is probably an atypical example. I would imagine quite a large number of DCs brought up there might question why they would need/want to go to another city…

@titchy that wasn't my experience in the mid-80s, I have to say. My friends went all over the country, though as @ElaineMBenes says, maybe that's because we had to. More recently, taking my DCs to visit, they both said they wanted to be at least 2 hours away from home – taking DS to the one he eventually ended up at we had a really good drive and were almost there after 1hour 45. I had to slow down for the last leg 😄. I do understand that some of our DCs are too anxious to do that, and of course if you don't see it being modelled among a previous generation, it becomes even harder to contemplate.

'Consumer information' didn't exist because students weren't paying tuition fees. When the tuition fees were increased to £9k in 2012 there was also a requirement for universities to provide Key Information Sets (KIS) so that students could make informed decisions about what they were 'purchasing'.

I think the 'marketisation' of tertiary education was a huge mistake. Once you start directly charging students, you change the fundamental nature of the relationship. I wonder sometimes if the architects of it foresaw this consequence? Did people use to view the then-polytechnics as somehow 'lesser' than university? I'm not so sure, maybe, but I always thought they served a different function.

What do those who work at universities now think about the advantages v disadvantages about the advent of tuition fees for students since 2012, has it been a success in terms of opening up wider access to youngsters who might previously not have considered it, and if so, does that outweigh the issues around student debt?

What do those who work at universities now think about the advantages v disadvantages about the advent of tuition fees for students since 2012, has it been a success in terms of opening up wider access to youngsters who might previously not have considered it, and if so, does that outweigh the issues around student debt?
Does the UK government have other choice as there is no funds for higher education. The university then became a supermarket. 😂

@titchy that wasn't my experience in the mid-80s, I have to say. My friends went all over the country,

Maybe a north/south thing. Certainly the majority of my Manchester peers went to uni/poly in Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield, Lancaster, Birmingham. One to Oxford (hated it), one to UEA and me and one other (both on full grants) to south coast.

Still the case now.
Its a north-south issue with students from the north avoiding the south (because they dont feel comfortable, feel they are looked down upon etc….)

My sons looked at Southern universities but the transport issues put them off. They preferred to be in a couple of hours of home in north Wales.

Why not meet other people you aren’t familiar with? Why only want to be in your own bubble?

Because, even if you feel pretty confident, feeling like you’re been looked down is never a nice feeling.

dc1, raised in the NE, is at Sheffield.
eg He gets no ending of comments about how he doesn’t pronounce things right, incl the names of the area where HE is coming from (like the Moors) from ‘southern’ students.
And there is a general feeling that our area is crap and it’s ok to look down on it/people living there.
There isn’t any curiosity from their side. More if a ‘you’re doing things weirdly aka wrong there’

double post

It's a very weird supermarket where the absolutely premium product costs the same as the bottom shelf. No wonder some people feel like they're getting ripped off, there is literally no other good or service I can think of where the market works like that, although the alternative (Oxbridge charging £30k, despite not needing the money) is even worse.

My experience in the early-90s was that almost everyone who went to university from my Northern school not only went to the South, but stayed there.

Your experience runs counter to the actual data.

Yes.

Nope - he met some folk who attended the same halls 4 years ago (just graduated) and they said same experience, year after year.

I'm sorry that your son is having that experience. It sounds tedious and dickish.

We visited Sheffield university twice (open day then offer day) and thought it seemed a really friendly, inclusive environment. DD's a Londoner and most of the people she/we came across were Northerners.

Also sorry to hear that your son has had such a bad experience @outdooryone Very poor form on the university's part.

My dd has the same at Warwick re accent.

I had the same at Lancaster. Worse actually as in my year many were from London / the south and they would say to each other "what did she say"

Agreed.
This is a uni who have averaged £200m a year in profit/surplus, yet refuse to change a carpet in a halls room which is minging and mouldy from years of mistreatment....Let alone the message on week 1 is 'we don't care it is your home, just give us the money and be thankful' and 'meh' when it comes to academic study...
I hope it improves or I will go to the press and see if they are interested.

Almost a full thread @GinForBreakfast . Not sure if you expected that or not. A lot of differing but interesting perspectives thus far. Are you planning a new thread to continue the conversations?

@GinForBreakfast goodness yes 40 pages.

Would this be Edinburgh you are alluding to @outdooryone?

“This is a uni who have averaged £200m a year in profit/surplus”
@outdooryone has highlighted a paradox!

Namely that a uni treating students unfairly prima facie has a ton of cash.

So it stands to reason that those putting students’ first may be the cash strapped ones!

I suppose it does rather depend on what you regard “posh” to sound like.

I think it was the pushiness of the parents as well. Tbh it was an open day and there's a no guarantee that the kids at the open day would apply/get offers/accept offers so in a way you should probably ignore who you bump into on open days. BUT, one of the most important things about open days is for prospective students to get a feel for the university and they feel how they feel, we shouldn't just dismiss their feelings because of the statistics.

Personally I find it a bit sad that being with 'people like them' was so important – didn't university used to, in part, be about living away from home, meeting new people, gaining new experiences, challenging yourself when out of your comfort zone etc etc.

I think fees, loans and CoL crisis has altered this a lot. When I was at Uni in the 80s/90s, I have no idea who had money and who didn't. Accommodation was cheap and universally crap, not sure any of us had heard of a student room with an ensuite, the SU was heavily subsidised, no Costas or Starbucks in sight. A night out was a disco at the SU.

From what I've seen from open days, students at the same Uni today can have very different experiences depending on how much money they have. I can imagine that students living on a very limited budget and having to work to subsidise their loans might not want to go to Unis where there are a significant number of students who can spend freely without thinking about it.

And let's be honest, plenty of people with money do look down on people who have less, why would their children be any different?

Thread 2 if people are interested in keeping the conversation going:

Some universities will go bust thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/5164744-some-universities-will-go-bust-thread-2