Some universities will go bust

[GinForBreakfast]

Reported in the Times today. It must be so worrying for students joining or returning in September/October.

My question is around the regulator, who knows where the issues are. What should they be telling students and when? It seems cruel, especially to young people, to withhold information. It has financial implications as well - people moving, paying deposits etc.

I don’t think it is how I do it to be honest. It’s a common complaint with a lot of undergraduate courses. I teach postgrad courses online with no complaints or issues. There is a world of difference between OU students, Stanford uni professional students and an average 18yo at a U.K. university.

i wouldn’t necessarily expect a non academic to understand that.

Interesting data @boys3
There's also a lot of variation within universities as to international, both in terms of dependence and how much numbers are down. My department is actually still doing OK with international but some others are so down they might get the chop next year. We have no idea why we're still doing OK!

I originally stated 'choice' and this still seems to be unrecognised. Just because some students can't learn without engagement (which I've found overrated and distracting - please just deliver the materials at pace and with enthusiasm), doesn't mean others should need to pay for that level of engagement.

The students you mention don't sound suitable for uni - they should be so fascinated that they hang on your every word and be 100% invested in their studies.

This is the issue!

I can find you a car that costs 5x another car, and is better in every way - but most people can't afford it, and value the quality/price and getting their journey done in the cheaper car.

Most people liked travelling on traditional airlines, but found the price of newer models that were less customer-friendly but more cost effective actually became much more preferred.

You need to get people through their finals and coursework. It might be the best way, but is it the most cost effective way you are proposing?

So, the question is, if you only had 5k per student - how would you setup a UK wide system to teach HE for the major subjects the country needs to the full degree standard? Optimise to this, nothing else.

So, the question is, if you only had 5k per student - how would you setup a UK wide system to teach HE for the major subjects the country needs to the full degree standard? Optimise to this, nothing else.

Good quality HE costs a lot more than £5k. You'd be creating a two-tier system, where the rich pay the actual cost, delivered in a private HE sector, and get a decent quality, well regarded and resourced degree. Everyone else gets a shitty degree from a state uni with fuck all facilities and support. And obviously no labs or expensive equipment so professions like medicine, engineering etc become the preserve of the wealthy again. Just like they were 100 years ago.

Your car and airplane analogies don't work btw because flying Ryan air gives you more spending money for your week in Ibiza - hardly affecting the rest of your life in the way that HE choices do.

@Satsuma89 and you have just perfectly demonstrated why viewing education as a consumer product is a huge problem.

When it comes to education we shouldn't be aiming for budget, bargain basement products. If your aim is to deliver degree programmes as cheaply as possible then you I'd argue you don't understand the purpose of education.

Of course we need to make efficiencies but we should still be aiming for quality because, unlike your examples, it does matter.

A trip in a cheaper car or budget airline will still get you to the same destination.
Poor quality education will not get you to the same destination as higher a quality education experience.

So, given 100 students, please explain how if they are paying 5k each where the money goes? Please only account for costs directly associated with teaching the students, not anything else the university chooses to do.

So, given 100 students, please explain how if they are paying 5k each where the money goes? Please only account for costs directly associated with teaching the students, not anything else the university chooses to do.

I'm guessing you don't value things like academic skills, library and library support, disability and well being services, careers and employability and placement teams?

Not to mention buildings and technology and people to maintain these?

You don't seem to understand that teaching and education is not just what happens in the classroom.

Why are there assumptions on this thread that universities are dinosaurs? Teaching methods are changing all the time because of research into how students learn. The flipped classroom method, for example.

Elaine so sorry. It's turning out to be a stressful summer with fears of redundancy, collapse, and a much higher workload for those of us who get to keep our jobs.

Thank you.
It's tough for everyone involved but we'll all turn up and do our best for the students ❤️

Yes. And academic research has, in part, helped these services to see how they can best support the students.

It's tough for everyone involved but we'll all turn up and do our best for the students

Absolutely.

No value at all, but if people want top pay for them no reason they can't be provided on top for a fee - as I said, just like an airline, no need for these to be in the core offering.

Buildings and tech I've made a very generous allowance for - much larger than most companies allow for, but again, not really essential tom provide same resources as 25 years ago - everyone needs a computer that is so powerful to just write a few docs, no workstations are needed at all to be provided - just back-end services.

It does look like there are huge savings to be made to get back to just core teaching and assessment.

Please only account for costs directly associated with teaching the students, not anything else the university chooses to do.

So you don't want the uni to pay for cleaners then as they're not directly teaching students? Who is doing the cleaning then?

What about maintaining that multi-million pound bit of kit your engineering at student use - technicians aren't directly teaching so you want to let them lose on an untested unsafe piece of equipment and tighten the screws themselves if it's a it wobbly?

Find their own placements? Choose their own library books? Maybe they could provide MH support to each other rather than uni paying for those expensive councillors. Maybe everyone has a turn sorting the IT and AV out. Oh and a rota for dealing with the finance dept to do annual accounts. Oh, can't employ a finance dept. Hmmm. A rota? What about the data returns? Maybe a team of volunteers? Open day organisation and adverts? Another student rota?

No they weren't. We're still needing ships, steel, cars, etc., just that now we import them from other countries. We even import coal!

No value at all, but if people want top pay for them no reason they can't be provided on top for a fee - as I said, just like an airline, no need for these to be in the core offering.

But education isn't an airline. This is where your ideas fail.
If I fly on a budget airline and choose not to purchase additional extras this has absolutely no bearing on me getting to my destination.
However, if you make things like academic skills, disability and well being support, careers, employability and placement an added extra then this will have a direct impact on a student's 'destination'. It will mean students who can afford the extra support or who have that support at home will achieve better outcomes and secure the more competitive jobs and higher salaries.

Why would you advocate for a system that would disadvantage poorer students and students with no family history of HE?

Buildings and tech I've made a very generous allowance for - much larger than most companies allow for, but again, not really essential tom provide same resources as 25 years ago - everyone needs a computer that is so powerful to just write a few docs, no workstations are needed at all to be provided - just back-end services.
I'm not talking about hardware. Universities do have computers and laptops to rent but that's a relatively small financial outlay.
I'm referring to software. That's the expensive bit.
Or are you suggesting students pay for that individually too?

It does look like there are huge savings to be made to get back to just core teaching and assessment.

Only if you don't understand how teaching and assessment works. Even schools have moved on from this outdated view of teaching.

We want to compete as a nation when it comes to education and produce graduates who can compete globally yet you want to send us back to the dark ages!!

Even the students themselves have very little idea of how many people behind the scenes are vital for the running of their course apart from the lecturers.

course admin staff
timetabling and room booking dept.
the IT dept -both student/staff facing (sorting out issues) and the team who will be getting software systems in place.
the digital education team who help set up all the blackboard sites, etc
library services, not just the books, etc but they put on academic skills sessions.
tech team for labs
placement team for any course involving placements
security and cleaners
admissions team, without them nobody is coming
marketing team, open days, etc
deputy heads of school, heads of school…..someone needs to be keeping an eye on individuals programmes and making sure they’re not failing students

wellbeing, apparently on average 50% of the 9k a year fees goes on student wellbeing services. Seems high to me but I assume it’s the truth.

thats just off the top of my head, I’m sure there’s more.

Just found this infographic from NTU.

i forgot about the buildings and the soaring energy costs. And of course pensions, the govt made post 92 unis be in the TPS i believe. So again we have another area of where the “business” has no control over expenditure. Employer costs for the TPS went up by about 5% in March, the govt has helped schools out with this rise but not universities. An actual private company would have pulled the plug on the pension scheme now but universities have no choice.

Payroll department for staff
Warehouse staff who send out printed materials

halls of residence staff and also the accommodation team.

Careers and Employability teams
Widening participation/ education liaison teams

Registry and Quality Assurance

Telling SLC which students haven't turned up so they can cancel their loan.

Market research and industry liaison to develop courses for the future that are relevant to employer needs.

Governance, compliance, regulation, endless FoI responses.