Some universities will go bust

[GinForBreakfast]

Reported in the Times today. It must be so worrying for students joining or returning in September/October.

My question is around the regulator, who knows where the issues are. What should they be telling students and when? It seems cruel, especially to young people, to withhold information. It has financial implications as well - people moving, paying deposits etc.

And does HMRC know about this? Sounds a bit iffy tbh. And we wouldn't allow it.

@DoorPath

Any other sector employing this many people would rightly be bailed out by government.

Governments haven't bailed out the UK industries such as mining, shipbuilding, steel production,car manfucature, etc.

Anyone else channeling their inner John Cleese:

'What have universities ever done for us?'

They may “add value” but they don’t generate profit, so should cut wastage. “Adding value” to the economy doesn’t give them any money to spend or waste; the two things are entirely separate.

Neither would we. And HMRC would have something to say!

Your friend might be a sessional or part-time/hourly paid lecturer. Their tax and contract status might be different.

back to @GinForBreakfast's thread opener.

From the HESA data these are the 20 UK unis with the highest percentage of total fee income (both undergrad and postgrad) from international students. Perhaps not surprisingly given the funding regime almost half of them are Scottish universities. The final column shows the fee income % of the Uni's total income.

Thus in the first row the University of Glasgow. For 22/23

• 12% of its fee income from UK undergrads and 5% from UK postgrads
• Therefore 17% of fee income from UK students overall
• 26% of its fee income from International undergrads and 57% from international postgrads
• Therefore 83% of fee income from International students overall
• Total fee income just under £385m as shown in the penultimate column
• 43% of the universities overall income from fees.

Imperial placed 4th on that table, 77% of total fee income from international students however fees only account for 36% of Imperial's total income.

In contrast Coventry Uni in row 12. 66% of its £393m fee income from international students; and with fees accounting for 82% of its total income. The implications of a 25% fall in international students are fairly clear. Added to this I would be very surprised if a 25% fall were evenly distributed across the sector. Coventry's financial challenges have of course been quite public.

Just to add this subset is taken from the 130 or so universities who typically appear in the main league tables (CUG, Times, Guardian).

And of course to re-emphasize that there are multiple factors impacting each university's financial resilience. So this one, single year, dataset should not be considered in isolation.

most of the rest

and the final handful

A huge number are estates and facilities workers. Academics have been slashed, professional services have been slashed. Student numbers were nearer 50000 a few years ago. The staff are burnt out and under threat of redundancy.

Student numbers were nearer 50,000 a few years ago

You have a couple of digits missing there @Thatsnotmynose

The UK had 85,000 students back in the early 1950s.

HESA has some charts with numbers by year since 2000 https://www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-analysis/students/whos-in-he

what does your 50,000 figure relate to?

@user8464987632 More than ha

Of course that's true - but for each topic we only need one university to do it - and re-use in all. Surely, that's obvious? Just select one lecturer in the country to do say vet tor calculus in 2025 and share between all unis.

I said, option - people can choose to pay £50 for videos or £2500 in person.

@user8464987632 More than half of those employed at a university are not academic staff. Job losses of this scale (3,000-5,000 per institution) would destroy the towns they are in.

A vanishingly, vanishingly small number of academics are > 65. You haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

But lower tariff universities aren't the ones in financial trouble. So that is a pretty stupid idea.

😀🤣

Satsuma - students already have that choice - they could go to the OU. 18 year olds don't though. They need face to face in person support and teaching. How are they supposed to get feedback or ask for a topic to be explained if they don't have access to the lecturer? Who marks their coursework or exams if the module has been delivered by Dr Bloggs who recorded the video a couple of years ago.

If people want online content only, there's plenty on YouTube, coursera, LinkedIn learning etc.

Students are also welcome to pay to be examined by the university of London external programme - cheap as chips, but no tuition.

Of course that's true - but for each topic we only need one university to do it - and re-use in all. Surely, that's obvious? Just select one lecturer in the country to do say vet tor calculus in 2025 and share between all unis.

I said, option - people can choose to pay £50 for videos or £2500 in person.

Goodness..., this is one way to tell everyone you know nothing about teaching, pedagogy, how people learn or research in one fail swoop!!

*fell swoop even!

22/23 only, universities showing a simple deficit (£000s) from the published HESA data table for consolidated statement of comprehensive income and expenditure

London South Bank University
-16,343
The University of Wolverhampton
-11,870
University of Wales Trinity Saint David
-10,929
Middlesex University
-10,395
The University of Brighton
-8,898
The University of Huddersfield
-7,460
The University of Reading
-7,195
The University of Surrey
-6,984
Leeds Beckett University
-6,455
Coventry University
-5,955
Sheffield Hallam University
-5,257
The University of Central Lancashire
-5,085
University of Durham
-4,909
The University of Winchester
-3,455
York St John University
-3,392
University of Worcester
-3,208
Solent University
-3,189
The University of Sunderland
-3,101
University of Derby
-3,046
Bishop Grosseteste University
-2,803
University of St Mark and St John
-2,457
The University of Portsmouth
-2,384
The University of Buckingham
-2,383
Wrexham University
-2,219
Kingston University
-1,876
University for the Creative Arts
-1,855
The Arts University Bournemouth
-1,004
The University of Bolton
-872
University of Gloucestershire
-820
University of Cumbria
-280
Royal Agricultural University
-113
Oxford Brookes University
-94

They were dying industries. HE clearly isn't.

An acquaintance of mine had an open book rummage through Durham’s accounts about 5 years ago (pre Covid) and said it was in such financial trouble she wouldn’t send a kid there.

I deliver very few didactic lectures. The majority of my lectures involve discussion, case studies, group work and feeding back to the wider group.

wouldnt work in an asynchronous format and would barely work online. Believe me i taught online through lockdown and it wasn’t great. Maintaining engagement was tough.

Must be how you do it - everyone can improve.

Open university works well, Stanford courses for professionals and post-grad work well this way, and are really top class.

It is of course interesting that nothing can change or be different - and yet people want the knowledge, understanding and skills without all the fluff if that's more affordable. Just like airlines, travel agents, banking, video shops, telephony and retail have all changed - maybe we need new people who think differently in HE rather those hanging on to VHS.

Must be how you do it - everyone can improve.

How bloody insulting!!

I really, really hate the assumption that academics are unwilling to change, develop or improve. That simply not true.
Most academics I work with are always looking to ensure they are implementing up to date teaching practices in a student centred way.

It is so shortsighted (and quite ignorant of teaching practice and pedagogy) to assume that everything can be delivered online. Some things are just not suited to online delivery and are better delivered in person and in small groups.

@Satsuma89

There can be a huge difference between highly motivated postgrads and others doing professional qualifications, and typical undergraduates when it comes to online learning.

As others have said, the first notable thing is that students are very reluctant to engage. In lockdown most would not turn their cameras on, never mind speak as part of a discussion. So the first change that would need to happen would be the desire and will on their part to actively participate and engage with online learning in real time.