Natural Sciences (not just Cambridge)

[PhotoDad]

DS has just finished Y12. He does double maths, physics, and chemistry. He really wants to pursue all of those subjects at university, with the option to narrow down once he's seen what they are like at uni level. Predicted 4 x A-star.

So, Natural Sciences is the obvious degree. We've looked together, and put down an initial list of Cambridge, Durham, Leeds, Bath, Nottingham, and Lancaster (which would mean he only has to eliminate one). He's ruled out Warwick and Exeter (too biological) and Loughborough (not enough flexibility in choices). He doesn't want London, because of cost and a dislike of large cities.

Is there anywhere obvious that we've overlooked, or that the UCAS search isn't showing us? Does anyone have DC doing Natural Sciences at any of these places with experiences to share? He's planning a gap-year and will apply to a Cambridge college which says that's OK; would that be a factor for anywhere else?

Son's friend did NatSci at Nottingham after a gap year travelling so wasn't an issue there. About to start a Masters at Bristol though.

Good to know, @Spirallingdownwards, thanks. DS is looking at integrated masters.

It sounds like your DS has/is doing this already - but really dive into how the options and pathways actually pan out across the various years of the course. For example, Lancaster's NatSci is built around three pathways but physics has to be taken as a double pathway (so only one pathway left for either 'single' maths pathway or a 'half' chemistry pathway). Likewise U of Bath NatSci subordinates maths to a more minor element pretty early on depending on choices made right at the outset. Essentially, the devil is in the detail.

At the risk of complicating things further, it might be worth keeping an open mind about other courses that explore overlaps, though not necessarily under the NatSci umbrella eg Chemical Physics at U of Bristol or Chemical Engineering at lots of unis (ie the applied intersection of physics, chemistry and mechanics maths). Hope that helps!

Thank you so much, @PerpetualOptimist! I think it would be good to sit down and go through all of those details with him so that he can make an informed choice. He did look at some of the joint-honours degrees like Bristol's, but ideally he would choose somewhere which would allow him to specialise in any two of the three subjects (and including pure maths, not just applied). He had considered Chem Eng but discovered that the bits of physics and maths he enjoys are the theoretical topics. It might well be that there aren't five such courses and he'll just have to apply and hope that the most flexible ones give him offers. The gap year also gives the possibility of reapplying with grades in hand.

There's the added complication that he'd like to continue a niche sport that only a couple of those unis offer. There might be compromises on one or the other.

In this kind of situation it might be worth him deciding his 'hierarchy of decision-making'. Is the order...
a. niche sport availability, then
b. small city location, then
c. course breadth and optionality
...or some other order (no need to articulate on this thread); I find the trade-offs then 'flow' more easily.

Very good advice. Thank you!

@PerpetualOptimist You're so right that the devil is in the detail. Bath doesn't offer a lot of flexibility about maths! (Lancaster does, however; the double physics option includes a choice of either "maths for physicists" or the same modules as the maths option.)

Yes, @PhotoDad, the U of Bath maths options, within NatSci, seems to be mostly about maths to support physical sciences rather than a stream in its own right. At least Bath gets full marks for having a handy, bespoke 'course generator'!

You are right that, in Y1 in Lancaster NatSci, the single Maths pathway can substitute one of the two Physics pathways...but (and the reason I did not mention) I think you have revert to double pathway Physics in the subsequent years, meaning you have to drop either the single Math pathway or the 'half' Chemistry pathway. So, again, some potential complications.

I am also not sure if you can go from single Maths in Y1 to the double Maths pathways in subsequent years (if you were to drop Physics). Obviously the Lanc NatSci dept could advise - but the point is there are often hidden trade-offs, even before you are accepted onto a NatSci course.

However, it is good that such courses exist and it is great your DS has such a wide range of interests and viable options!

Thanks again, @PerpetualOptimist. I think that it's very likely that there are only really five viable choices for the shortlist anyway, so some of the decision making can be probably be deferred until he sees which ones offer him places. I do like the idea, in theory, of being all interdisciplinary and everything, but it all gets very complicated compared to his original choice of ChemEng. (And my DD is at art-school, which was a completely different process.)

Has he considered Scottish unis where you start off broad anyway? He could very easily indeed do all three subjects in first year at Edinburgh for example and then narrow down from there. An extra year, but I think there's something about the tuition fee being free the 4th year for RUK students.

Thank you, @NeedingCoffee. We did have a look but couldn't see anything that really fitted in the Scottish universities we looked at. Maybe we've missed something!

My information is out of date now but both DDs are NatSci graduates (as of Friday lol). DD2's course is no longer accepting applicants, which is a real shame. However, when they were looking, we went to Newcastle, Durham, York, Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, Nottingham, Warwick, Bristol, Cardiff, Southampton and Bath as well as Cambridge and Leicester where they ended up. York was on both DDs' shortlists so worth checking out.

Thank you @Malbecfan, and congratulations to your DDs! I will look at what I can find from that list. Unfortunately the York website says that 2023 was the last intake for NatSci and the Southampton page links nowhere and was last updated in 2018. 😞

I’m going to be a bit provocative here but what are his expectations of a Natural Sciences degree? Delaying his choice with a broader approach usually comes at cost for the final attained level and knowledge base in the main science. The exception is for the Cambridge degree where the work load is so much more intense in the first year compared to other universities.

US uni? They don't declare a major until their 3rd year. It might suit him and with those grades he should get a financial package that won't cost more and might cost a lot less

Taking Bath for example, tge entry requirements A*AA are higher than for single sciences, the reason given is that students are tackling the 'meat' from 2 degrees.

DD starting in Bath. I think we found east Anglia as well, but DD was not at all interested in UEA.

DD starting in Bath. I think we found east Anglia as well, but DD was not at all interested in UEA.

@sendsummer Being honest, he is really aiming for the Cambridge course, but wants some good backups that also keep his options open. I do take your point; specialising earlier might be wise in some ways. But he is really unwilling to make that call until he's had some uni experience; he is equally strong in, and enthusiastic about, all of his subjects. My feeling is that with an integrated master's, he'd be pretty specialised by the end (what with a research project) and so up to the same standard as other in the field, should he wish to carry on in academia or industry. And if he doesn't, then the degree details become less relevant. Hmmm.

@Britsfivk We did suggest that but he isn't keen! Especially with the prospect of a new government there...

@Wronginformation Thank you! Another one to check out.

My DD graduated from Durham last year with an MSci in natural sciences. It was a very flexible course. Initially she thought she'd do chemistry maths and physics but when it came to choosing her year 1 modules she only fancied maths and physics. As she progressed through the degree what her final degree might potentially have been kept changing due to the modules she took. At one point it looked like she'd get a double honours degree in maths and physics but because she chose all dissertation for her physics modules in year 4 reverted back to Nat science. It's possible to choose modules and end up with a single subject honours degree. At one point she self studied a year 2 module over a summer holiday and took an august exam so she could take the year 3 module. There is so much choice in modules and the head of department is incredibly present and supportive.

And she's going onto further academic study in maths/theoretical physics at imperial so having a Nat sci degree from Durham has in no way held her back academically. She was doing to same modules as her friend who was doing maths BSc course

What about Chemistry? You can specialise in the physics end of Chemistry.

DC has just graduated from Imperial College doing exactly this and is about to start a job working in a computational lab. (Science based on computer modelling)

Thanks, @chocolatenutcase, that's really great to know. The website is a bit overwhelming! Well done to your DD, as well!

@dizzydizzydizzy We have talked about the merits of this (there are various Physical Chemistry, Chemical Physics, and Materials Science courses out there) but he has convinced me that he knows what he wants. Just not where.

Thanks to everyone for input! I always hope that threads like these might be useful to people in the future, too.

we have done a similar round of universities. What I had not appreciated - which everyone else might already have realised - is that Cambridge has a dedicated NatSci course and pretty much all the permutations are available (assuming you have the requisite quals).
However elsewhere you’re just picking up modules from the individual physics/biology/chemistry degrees and so you have to slot into their timetables which aren’t always set with the NatSci students in mind. (Disclaimer: we haven’t gone to all the unis that have been listed).

I think it was either at Lancaster or Durham that the student we talked to said that they’d pretty much had to study a whole module alone on catch-up power points and recorded lectures as they had a big timetable clash.
I think this was maybe because they did a unique combination but it’s worth asking about.

I think it’s a fab degree though in its flexibility as most students we spoke to said that they’d had one idea of what they wanted to study and then often changed or refined it quite considerably.

Over their secondary years my YP moved from wanting to do a maths degree to biology, then neuroscience, had a brief thought of medicine, then realised that chemistry and physics were what they wanted to continue with. And I am sure that it will change somewhat when they (hopefully ) get there.

Thank you, @Corriefan1978. Definitely worth asking about timetabling issues. Catching up on your own doesn't sound great. Obviously my DS agrees about the flexibility! Best of luck to your YP.