Natural Sciences (not just Cambridge)

[PhotoDad]

DS has just finished Y12. He does double maths, physics, and chemistry. He really wants to pursue all of those subjects at university, with the option to narrow down once he's seen what they are like at uni level. Predicted 4 x A-star.

So, Natural Sciences is the obvious degree. We've looked together, and put down an initial list of Cambridge, Durham, Leeds, Bath, Nottingham, and Lancaster (which would mean he only has to eliminate one). He's ruled out Warwick and Exeter (too biological) and Loughborough (not enough flexibility in choices). He doesn't want London, because of cost and a dislike of large cities.

Is there anywhere obvious that we've overlooked, or that the UCAS search isn't showing us? Does anyone have DC doing Natural Sciences at any of these places with experiences to share? He's planning a gap-year and will apply to a Cambridge college which says that's OK; would that be a factor for anywhere else?

And that'll doubtless involve some serious maths.(I've been an in silico chemist for about 4 decades now, it's the perfect intersection IMO )

chocolatenutcase when it came to choosing her year 1 modules she only fancied maths and physics.
And that in effect is a single science degree, theoretical physics or, if at Cambridge, mathematics with physics. It is not the same as trying to keep up chemistry and physics as main subjects with as well sufficient maths to keep open particularly the more mathematical options in physics.

@PhotoDad an integrated masters with a final year project is pretty normal for single science subjects anyway so I don’t really get your point about this allowing to “catch-up’’ or take the same breadth of modules (and time for sufficient practice in python etc) that those will when studying the single science. Especially with time consuming practicals and restrictions on bench space. Cambridge gets round this by a 6 day programme plus, not infrequently, evening tutorials.

@sendsummer My point was that by the time you've done the research project in, for example, solid state physics it wouldn't really matter that you didn't do special relativity in Year 1 because you'd either be going into solid state or leaving physics. I did joint honours and felt prepared to go into either field for further study.

But I do see your point too, and it's something to discuss with DS. Thank you!

I would also say that even at Cambridge you don't really do enough maths to be allowed into the pure maths course, I don't think. You have 4 maths options in first year, of which only two would be of interest to your son:

Elementary maths for biologists (might have had a new name since I went - for if you don't have a maths a level)
Maths for biologists (have maths a level but confident you're specializing in biology)

Then the ones your son will presumably want:

Maths A - the main maths course, suitable for chemists, chem eng, comp scis and ultimately physicists. Also fine for mathematically inclined bio natscis. Technically you are permitted to take this without a further maths a level. In reality they cover the further maths a level syllabus in about 6 lectures at the start of first term.

Maths B: This is harder again, I knew very few people who took this and I am still not sure it's detailed enough to permit a transfer to pure maths.

I think you can then do two physics modules and a maths module again for the mathsiest possible second year but it's not a straight maths course.

Thank you, @Ineffable23. More to discuss with DS! The devil really is in the details. I'm not sure quite how "pure" he would like his maths to be, I think he just wants options to do at least some maths which isn't purely for the needs of the science parts of the course, at least in the first year.

Given his interests I strongly suspect that he'll end up doing the equivalent of theoretical physics, but he also loves his chemistry. He got a gold in the chemistry Olympiad and his teacher told him that most golds go to Y13 entrants. That has encouraged him to pursue it further, at least for a year to see what he thinks.

When I said pure maths I should have said straight maths as in maths only. But I am also not precisely sure how much pure or otherwise maths they include in maths b - maths b is definitely assumed at people who do maths for the joy of it rather than just to support their physics so that might well meet his needs, it's just you can't transfer into a maths only course without a proper course transfer from natsci (and I think they'd make you go back to first year if you did transfer).

The maths syllabuses are linked on here:

https://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergradnst/currentstudents

There's definitely no shortage of maths though and the courses are as fast paced and detailed as some university maths courses.

Thank you so much, @Ineffable23. We'll have a look. As it happens we're in Cambridge next week for unrelated reasons and will look around a handful of colleges (at least one in each of the four combinations of big/small, old/new), but that's a different story! We couldn't make the official open day as he had a music exam...

@PhotoDad I did joint honours and felt prepared to go into either field for further study
Fair enough, but was it with these 2 sciences both with their own lab sessions and not at Cambridge?
Your DS is obviously highly able and the odds are in his favour for a place at Cambridge. I am just pointing out the disadvantages of physical natural science programmes elsewhere when the choice is between chemistry and physics, even more so if you add in the maths level required to keep open the option of theoretical physics.

Thank you again, @sendsummer. Those are very valid points. I think that if the Cambridge application doesn't result in an offer (and we all know very strong candidates who don't get offers) we can review the whole situation. He'll be on a gap year and can apply grades-in-hand elsewhere, possibly to a more standard joint honours. Over the course of Year 13 he might decide that he really does prefer one of physics or chemistry!

In case anyone is interested, the final shortlist is Cambridge (Churchill College), Leeds, Lancaster, Nottingham, and Durham. Very happy to hear any more good or bad stories!

I am late to this thread, @PhotoDad

Your DS sounds super, as does his decision process. I wish him the best of luck. You’ve also been a beacon of common sense and good advice on this Board, so I am glad you are reaping some now.

In terms of his future, I do have some of the same concerns as @sendsummer . DS’ proposed degree programmes are strong to outstanding, but by definition trade depth for breadth - and, importantly, an integrated perspective.

Of course he may find he’s had enough studying after his UG experience, and that is fine. If he does want a PhD, how will that work? The experiences of PPs are reassuring, but not completely. I think it worth further investigation. I do feel there must be a positive answer, because Natural Sciences is a demanding degree and a certain proportion of its very able students presumably go on to doctoral study. But make sure DS likes the solution.

Best wishes to him

Thanks for your kind words, @poetryandwine. My DD is at art school and so this is a completely different set of universities and courses to research.

Given that many Cambridge NatScis go on to do PhDs, there must indeed be a solution. He genuinely doesn't know whether he'd want to go into research, or industry. I think he's unlikely to jump over to finance etc, but people can change. I never really knew what I wanted to do and just took the subjects that interested me, even at university (with a slightly schizophrenic Physics & Philosophy course after a hodgepodge of A-levels), so I have a lot of sympathy for him.

I have learned a lot from this thread and passed it on to DS. Now I think he wants to get the form off, sit the (brand new) ESAT in October, and start planning his gap year (alongside Y13 work, of course). One step at a time.

Some of the most interesting areas of science can be in the crossover areas imo, or in ones like material science where (I believe) Cambridge is strong, but as a single subject degree may be somewhat overlooked as an option for brighter students.

Materials Science would almost certainly be his "new" subject if he got in to Cambridge, and there are similar options in most but not all of the other universities on his list. He asks questions in class which get shuffled back and forth between the physics teachers ("that's chemistry!") and the chemistry teachers ("that's physics!")

Of course it's a somewhat arbitrary distinction in atomic/molecular stuff. (Rutherford was, infamously, disgusted when his Nobel Prize was for Chemistry. He still accepted it, though.)

Quite so! I'm a chemist but colleagues include materials scientists, biophysicists etc etc.

Hi, my DD has just got a confirmation from Durham to do the MSci in NatSci. I was wondering if your DD has done a year abroad and if so, whether she recommends it and where she went to study/work. Thank you!

@futureistoday she looked at the year abroad.
I think unlike the 3 year BSc courses where the year abroad didn't really count towards the degree (she had friends who did this) when she looked for her MSci course it did count so she was limited to where she could go. In the end the areas she enjoyed she couldn't find so she decided to stay in Durham.
Congratulations to your DC. I am biased but it really is a fabulous course that can take a student in any direction. And the uni offers so many opportunities I am sure they will have a fabulous time.

Futureistoday, what chocolatenutcase mentioned is (one of the reasons) DD chose Bath, where she can do MSci as well as a year study abroad (which won't count towards end degree).
It will be 5 years though.

@Wronginformation that's similar to what my younger DD did. Older DD did NatSci at Cambridge and is now starting the 4th year (hopefully final year) of her PhD there in Materials Science. DD2 went to Leicester and did the integrated Masters with a year abroad. Due to Covid she couldn't spend the whole year there, but she studied at a university in Tokyo and was out in Japan for 4 months. She graduated in the summer with a 1st class degree and starts her "proper" job in 10 days. The Japan part was the making of her.

Sadly Leicester no longer offers this course.

Just to complicate matters a bit, i would get him to consider what he is thinking beyond university. Dsd did a pure science at university and has been knocked back by graduate schemes who whilst they list pure sciences as ok for entry, they heavily favour engineering degrees. She really regrets not doing engineering at degree level - her school had favoured pure sciences in their advice. Engineering degrees are science based but skewed in a more applied way making transition to work easier.

Mitogoshigg, I take your point but DD did not want to do this at all....
malbecfan, DD big fan of Japan, or no I should say certain Japanese things eg studio Ghibli...

That could work either way though.

I always like it when an OP returns to update an old thread. DS has his offer from Cambridge now, and his Insurance will be either Nottingham or Durham. Thanks for all the help!

Congratulations to him!

Congrats! Can I ask what the offer was?