URGENT: How to help Dd Decide in next 2 weeks ???

[StripeyChina]

Dd has Autism, severe Dyslexia & Clinical Anxiety (poss ADHD but unmedicated).
Still requires a lot of support. Not yet independant re timetable, transport, cooking etc. Has had a gap year, volunteering at a local repair shop (special interest). MAY be offered part time paid work here (will know this week)
So, that seems the sensible route (plenty of home support) but shes watched her friends go to Uni & wants to go too. Shes seriously bright (seriously SEN too)

She applied to 3 Unis (5 courses). She has been offered a place on all 5.
MUST reply by 6 June or will lose places. But is paralysed by the 'hugeness' of it.
Because of her ASD, she finds it hard to know how she feels so wants to make the decision based on facts but is very anxious about it. As am I now!

We are in Scotland so if choose a Scottish Uni (#1 or 2) there are no fees to pay.

Uni #1: 90m away - commute not very practical (no car, poor public transport) Uni is average at best, poor experience with SEN support. Halls expensive & not great. Dd is not enthusiastic (unless it could be combined with the 'job' above?)

Uni #2: is the 'sensible' choice. Outstanding Uni reputation. Doing a subject that she is good at (previous good exam results & a private passion for plus highly employable too). But she isn't sure he wants to study it at Uni. She doesnt' much like the Uni, doesn't like the Town or the Halls. So, shes 'probably going there as its the sensible & Best one'. But there is no sense of excitement at all.

Uni #3: is the wild card. It's in London. So, FEES. It's a much wider course at a fairly new place (London Interdisciplinary School). Dd is much more nervous about the course material (as it's a very broad based curriculum & fairly open ended - seems to attract a lot of confident students?). BUT is also excited about it. Very excited about living in London. Likes the accomodation (can stay 3 yrs).
There are only around 60 students in the cohort, all studying the same degree, so it would be much smaller & easier to get to know students & staff. They seem to 'get' her already & have been very friendly (plus there might be a bursary!)

Right thats enough of an essay to start with (didnt' want to drip feed).
I think she might need actual straightforward advice at this point.

Can anyone help me think it through please?

I think doing a trial run sounds like a great idea. If the Uni were completely supportive they would be offering some kind of orientation for ND students anyway.

Accept the London place but defer for a year?

In the meantime she could do some OU courses, some are free and will get her in the habit of study.

Plan, plan, plan.

So in the year she needs to have a couple of trips to London, with you then alone. Train, driving flying, try all the options.

If they offer 3 years accomodation what happens over the summer?

Plan meal plans if she is not in catered accomodation. Ideally a 3 week plan and a supermarket delivery every week. It can start being planned with her and then letting her make changes.

Does she know how to clean?

Timetable things with her, from showers to meals to what time she leaves her accomodation, how often she needs to clean etc.

I would also get her a credit card, an extra one on your account if you have it but do not give her the PIN. THis is for emergencies only.

Hi , again OP -

Trialling some OU courses as @sashh suggests is a great idea.

I echo the concerns of PPs about LIS. It may be brilliant for the right students. But I have observed time and time again that many autistic students have difficulties with group work and require a relatively structured learning experience. LIS sounds like a possible concern on both counts, to say nothing of being so far away.

I am not sure how you got the idea that a general CS degree is less desirable than a niche one like Ethical Hacking or the others you mentioned? I can see that to a young person the niche degrees may sound sexier, and the Scottish entry requirements are slightly higher though the English ones (for the courses I looked at) are the same.

However the Russell Group Universities - Edinburgh, Glasgow, Cambridge etc, do not even offer these niche degrees. They only offer general CS; some offer Cybersecurity (which means different things at different places) and some offer Computer Engineering or IT. That list is essentially complete. The more general degrees give you better training in the core principles and a wider range of employment options. There is nothing wrong with a niche degree - so many are offered because the students do get jobs. But CS students get those jobs too. IMO niche CS degrees are mainly marketing tools.

My uni does not offer any and our students get wonderful jobs.

My experience (teacher).

Edinburgh getting better for support. Was terrible.

Glasgow, not great.

St Andrews. Superb. Bespoke and very helpful.

I wouldn't go to Abertay if seriously bright. She will lose motivation.

London depending on her response to the big city. I think it can be hugely overwhelming especially to someone from the country.

Not sure if this helps as not sure which other University.

My dd has anxiety for which she is prescribed beta blockers, that has been enough for her to get an exemption from being marked down for turning in work late. She has to appeal for an exemption each time it happens (about 3 times in her 3 years at uni) but has been given the exemption each time. It's worth a try.

Abertay is regarded very highly for computer science degrees lots of the brightest students in Scotland head there!

If she is in a flat of 4 in post grad accommodation I don't think she will have the "fun" student experience she/you anticipate. At that stage post grads are usually there for their one year master's head down work and move on, or PhD not likely to want to socialise with freshers. In London particularly unless she is sporty or in societies she may find it harder to find a friendship group.

Like other PPs I would worry about your DD being so far away in such a huge city with the challenges she has. I'd accept #2 as first and #1 as backup, in the knowledge that nothing is set in stone and that she can still look around, see what's in clearing, and withdraw and reapply next year if necessary. The option of no fees at a Scottish uni is such a brilliant opportunity to reduce debt that I'd find it hard to look elsewhere TBH.

Hi, I'm ND (ADHD possible autism), studied in London, now a software engineer. I recruit graduates every year.

I'd forget about the London uni. The course looks like marketing BS, quite frankly. There are plenty of degrees from good universities which allow you a free choice of modules, achieving a similar effect. Also, it doesn't sound relevant to your daughter's strengths at all, going for engineering and computer science.
London is also expensive, large, and overwhelming. Your daughter is likely not thinking about the practicalities especially as she's not even independent enough at home. She's very likely to struggle.

Computer science is a field where degree name doesn't matter. Even if her degree work is beneath her abilities, there's plenty for her to do in her own time to keep her occupied, and she'll meet like minded people. Contributing to open source, CTF's, Hackathons. It's also a field very open to remote work.

As mentioned by @poetryandwine the 'better' universities only offer computer science - however there's a nuance here. 'computer science' is mostly theory. Many graduates go into jobs that never use half the stuff, they got it because of all the self-learning they do alongside their degree. Especially for fields like cyber security. the majority of jobs don't even need a computer science degree you find people coming from various routes, they all have the required professional qualifications.

It's far better to get into a degree that she'll enjoy, that will support her and allow her to achieve a good grade than worrying about how 'good' or bad a degree is.

My husband (autistic, we met at work! :D) went to a erm not very well regarded university. He was very bright but couldn't do written exams. He was the sort who started playing with computers as a teenager... Got on brilliantly at work, people with years and years of experience, high ranked people etc acknowledged how talented he was. He's gotten hired for jobs over Oxbridge graduates because he knows his stuff.

The biggest challenge In getting onto a good graduate scheme IMO isn't intelligence it's the sheer brutal process, several stages only 1 -2 with human input. However there also lots of smaller companies to start with, and this field is full of neurodiverse people 😍 my people, and probably hers too. She'll love it.

Happy to provide any further detailed advice if needed.

Can't delete the below, am on phone.

As @poetryandwine

I think London would be a mistake. I'm an academic and part of my job is handling cases where we have really serious concerns about student welfare. Every year I see 2-3 students who are neurodiverse and very bright but cannot cope with the organisational aspects of university and living away from home, and their mental health collapses. Without fail, when I speak to the students and their parents, it was clear that the students had needed lots of parental support with school/sixth form but had been very keen to have the experience of living away from home for University. Without fail, I sit through these meetings thinking 'if only you had gone to a University close to home, lived at home and commuted'.

Going away for university can be a wonderful experience but it's also often a really steep learning curve and very tough for students who do not have additional challenges. For students who do have additional challenges, it can be extremely tough and if it doesn't go well, it can be catastrophic. Don't indulge in wishful thinking about her ability to live/study independently (and so far away from you) at this point in her life. You need to be really realistic about how well she'd really cope.

It has the niche degrees I described above and I am sure they do attract some very bright students. Other very bright students have other, specific reasons for choosing a particular university. So I want to be clear I am not denying that Abertay has some bright students.

But we best help the OP by being accurate. The A level offer (which is the easiest one for most MumsNetters to understand) for most CS degree programmes is CCC. The Scottish offers are commensurate. That does not reflect that ‘lots’ of the brightest students in Scotland are heading there.

(I am a former STEM admissions tutor)

The OP and her DD have many things to consider. In fact I was recently corresponding with the mum of a very bright autistic DS at Abertay and the peer group may be an issue for this DD IMO.

Great post. The emphasis on self learning and extracurricular learning is important, and I think it might be great news for your DD, OP.

I would advise waiting at least another year. My dd went after a gap year but stayed living at home struggled and dropped out. Restarted 22 and much more successful, living away with minimal extra support (she has a weekly drop in with a support worker).

Some universities are far better, often the middle ranking ones I have found anecdotally. Avoid some of the top ranking ones, one particular RG one I know 4 drop outs for mental health all asd kids

If does decide to take a further gap year I would have a look at Cardiff, they were pretty good and food related issues, the hall manager asking what have you eaten etc. admittedly I was also dropping off food but if you can find out if either of the Scottish ones would do that perhaps

My daughter is similar but younger - perhaps less at to day SEN but has vulnerabilities. I'd want her close to home. Uni is a transition that is challenging for many let alone ASD youngsters. Moving out is a big deal on its own. I studied in London and IMHO the risk of overwhelm is too high. You know your daughter but I'd be thinking small steps. As pp says, there's always post grad and those few years will make a big difference.

I am in CS. Generally, it looks ‘better’ to get a pure CS degree (or electrical engineering/physics/maths) and then an MSc in your specialist area than it would to get an undergrad in something like Cybersec.

Cybersec is something you work your way up into anyway, it’s not a case of do 4 years and you get handed a high-earning job. CS degrees have an amazing flexibility.

Firstly, thank you everyone for your replies.

My preference would be for her to attend Uni & live at home (only 1 in reach)
But she tried that last year. It went wrong because the Uni cocked up Admission. She might well have been ok otherwise. But it put her off that Uni. She isn't willing to endure the commute again / pay £££££ halls for such an average experience. Now, if that was combined with the job so she commuted 1 day a week that's different. So I'm going to call & see what's what on that front.

Abertay - she doesn't want to study 'just computing with lots of other Scottish 17 year old boys'. Re niche area - she has an HNC in Cyber but doesn't want to 'go down the GCHQ path/ feed into Scottish Govt work'. We have heard, colloquially, that 'ordinary' computing gets a lot less input at Abertay. Despite being born here she has an English accent & has been bullied locally for it so I think she is worried going somewhere 'more Scottish' than Edinburgh is bad.
She isn't fussed about a SU bar but does want to be able to connect with others.

Re London - she is a Tube nut & is happy to travel it alone (she feels she 'blends' much better than locally). She is very political & interested in media & TV. She likes the ethos of the LIS degree as there are so many areas of interest she has that probably couldn't follow up in Dundee (eg military history & museums).

I think she needs to go down to see the room in London. She could also possibly spend a couple of days up in Dundee with the YP of a friend we made.

I'm going to read over the whole thread again carefully (I have a 2nd ND YP doing exams atm so there is a lot going on). I do feel very responsible for helping her make the choice that is most likely to 'succeed' - by that I mean make her both employable for when I'm not around & make her content.

Also, I agree with the previous posters that a CS degree is not a strict requirement for CS hiring (although I will caveat that this is not strictly true in the current market). There are many CS conversion MSc courses that your dd could study, if she wanted to go down that road later in life. And in any case, by the time your dd graduates, the job market will have changed again and hopefully there will be more opportunities for grads.

ps @mactire (I'm working my way backwards)

Abertay have just re-jigged their degrees slightly
They've offered: Computing, Computer Science. CS + Cyber
(all are much the same in Y1/Y2 but CS+Cyber looks good ?)

My ND DD is more independent than you have described yours and her first uni was 4 hours from home by car or train, catered halls meant she managed the first year, just but when it came to the second year it all fell apart and she had to drop out. She did make it back to uni, 2 years later much closer to home and was able to complete the course.

First time round she picked the ideal course at the ideal university with no regards to her wellbeing. Second time around wellbeing was top of her priorities.

The culture shock and distance for you DD going to London would be huge. I live in a commuter town and have spent a lot of time in London, plus DH worked there for many years and I have also spent time in Edinburgh as another DC went to uni there, the city is so compact and friendly. I can't comment on the uni as that DC is not ND and makes friends wherever they go.

In all honesty none of them sound right. Going to uni just because everyone else is is not the right solution. I think she needs a year of life skills, learning to look after herself and maybe get this part time job. Then I think it'll be apparent which uni and course fit, if any.

Who told her that the only jobs available would be Scottish government/GCHQ? Two big financial institutions, Barclays and JP Morgan have tech centres in Glasgow. There are also a lot of SAAS providers and startups. And consultancies, like the Big4 accounting firms who also have consulting divisions and tech ones like IBM, Accenture, Capgemini etc.

@mactire , I'll also add that the 'CS' marker is broad, with so many skills it can be quite hard for people to work out where they fit.

Employers love hiring Physics/Engineering graduates because STEM supposedly makes them better coders, but I personally haven't found this true. They still lack the fundamental knowledge a computer science graduate has regarding operating systems, networks etc although they may be quicker in picking up data structures and algorithms. Some have even coded during their degree but so have, say quantitative social science students with things like R.
It's an outdated notion In 2024 when there are plenty of technical interviews/tests that can filter by ability without needing to rely on degree subject.

Cyber isn't special in not leading to the big bucks straight out of university. Nothing is. I suppose what you mean is that, unlike web development it takes many years to be very competent, which is true but a lot of successful people I find are tinkerers and so advance faster. It's certainly not a field to just do your 9-5 job and go home. However even companies like PwC hire graduate pen testers and cyber security specialists, so there are entry routes.

The issue I have with Cybersec degrees is that, like accounting, a lot of the content overlaps with professional certifications. However, it's still related enough to technology to pass the 'tech degree' requirement. The devil is in the detail as to what combination of modules they have. Some are the same as computer science degrees but with solely security related third year modules.

Regarding the conversion MSc most of them do not even have data structure and algorithms...in fact quite a few so-called 'computer science' degrees don't, and only have a couple of programming modules. The quality is very variable. The module choices need to be carefully looked at.

The first job is always the hardest and after that background matters less. It's more about specific experience, qualifications and how you leverage your unique mix of skills and strengths

Pure CS would always, always be my pick. Cyber is trendy (and it’s a big employment area, for sure) but a CS+Cyber degree is not more impressive than pure CS. In fact I’d be side eyeing the CS+Cyber because they may have just slapped a few CS modules together to give it that label. Would rather see the time spent on core CS work, myself.

How is that London Interdisciplinary School even a university? Its only seven years old and its tiny. Its "campus" is a single building and it has 18 academic staff. I'd think very carefully before going all that way for what is effectively a private college which is much smaller than most secondary schools. Many local colleges offer undergraduate degree courses nowadays. This is just one of those types of organisations. It isn't a university in the way most people would think of a university and its likely to be very limiting for someone with ADHD/autism in terms of them being able to find people to fit in with.

I'd be worried as a parent if my neurodiverse child wanted to go there.

Also OP I had another thought - how long does she have to decide on the offers? Could she possibly do a 'short course' of some sort in London, stay over for a few weeks, see how she gets on?

Of course this wouldn't be cheap, and she might be able to mask for a bit, but it would give her an idea of what living there is like.

I can certainly see how something as frequent as the Tube would be easier for someone with executive functioning issues - they're not going to be late due to missing the one bus an hour. However regarding food and cooking etc she could find her expenses mounting up very quickly without planning if she gives in and just gets a takeaway or something when she's hungry.