University snobbery

[nysw]

Just wondering if anyone has come across this from adults/parents?

That is all

@poetryandwine Interesting posts. To reply to you: I think science jobs are about what you can demonstrably do. Is your training and thought processes commensurate with the employers' needs? Can you solve interview tests? Do you have the skills required to be competent? Certainly health and engineering are less bothered about uni and more about competence.

When it comes to employing a grad for a general position, do you prefer one with an English degree? Or what about History? Or maybe Philosophy or Sociology? Many of the skills these grads have are more difficult to quantify and fit into the job spec. So how do you judge who is best fit? It might eventually come down to personality or best fit for your team. Judgement tends to be less about competencies, more about subjective feelings when deciding between candidates. Assuming most candidates are fairly equal.

I have to say my heart sinks when DC don't consider the better unis for their subject and then find grad employment a struggle. Starting salaries for many are poor. I do realise not everyone has confidence and I believe this it is important to foster this.

We also never had totally free uni for the majority. Parental contributions have been around for decades. It's clear the huge expansion of uni places has partly been funded by fees and millions have accepted this is the case . It's easy for folk to say they would t go, but they must surely recognise the state cannot fund this massive expansion without the better off (high earning grads) making a contribution. Or do they think the cleaner should pay more?

@TizerorFizz Thanks for explaining your views on how recruiting may differ by field. I had never thought much about non-STEM recruiting.

Fostering confidence is acknowledged to be difficult, at least by the time DC are at university. Given your own background, do you have any ideas on how to do this?

I agree it is easy for people to talk. But these friends were surprisingly vehement. One is the DS of a single mum cleaner and I am sure none of them would have basic rate taxpayers increase their taxes to subsidise university tuition. I think most of these friends think the expansion of the university population was poorly planned, with some against it in principle and others favouring a graduate tax, a sink-or-swim approach, or other funding mechanisms.

I was not in the UK during the tuition debate so my understanding is incomplete

piston, I agree. I call it a secret "code". People think I ought to know the code because I am a lawyer and have 4 lawyer children but I don't. My son's friend got his job at a very top accountancy firm where a parent works not because of any preference at all but we think either he is very good (which I am sure he is) but also he had advice on what answers they want - the code as it were.

I suppose elements of the code are obvious things like how you interact with others, ability to work in teams, co-operation, all the skills you need in a real office. I expect it is knowing how to show that the gets you the jobs. Once I had my first job it was all fine and same for my children - we are fairly competent, good with people, emotionally intuitive, hard working and speak and write reasonably well but it is opening the door to that magic kingdom of the high paid jobs which seems to hard for some (and perhaps not for others) even though law firms even have videos on good and bad interviews.

Anyway I have slightly got off the topic of which universities are best and on to graduate jobs which is a different thing.

In my limited experience the most confident young people I have come across have all been privately educated. State schools do fall down on this IMO.

It was one of the reasons we considered it for DD until we realised it would be too much of a stretch for us.

Does the private schooling make them confident or are they at private school because they have confident and successful parents?

Dd has been at a v well regarded uni, doing a v well regarded course. Encouraged to apply by 6th form, regardless of whether we, her parents, could afford for her to go there.

She has had a horrific time for many reasons not limited to zero support for additional needs (with an official diagnosis), several instances of low level sexual harassment and 1 v v serious one which is with the police and highly likely to conclude in a criminal court case.

She is dropping out and reapplying for a local uni, still RG, still highly regarded and 15 miles from home. Accommodation half the price, uni (I graduate from the same uni in the summer) a world of difference in terms of support.

She only went to original choice because of snobbery from teachers.

@HighlandCowbag I hope the bastard that hurt Ur DD is convicted.

I hope so too. 🙏 the police have a strong case so hopefully it will result in a conviction.

She knows of two other girls that were seriously hurt, by different male students. It is disgusting.

These thoughts around the confidence question are fascinating, if sad. Thank you, @RampantIvy and @Ellerby83

I too am very sorry for your DD’s experience, @HighlandCowbag

@poetryandwine
I think it's interesting that people think private school somehow gives confidence. My DD1 was confident before she got anywhere near a private school. DD2 is less confident but had more years in a private school.

Having been to a grammar school and seen DDs friends who went to grammars, some of these dc are hugely confident too. Many are very capable young people. So I'm not sure it's totally about school. I think upbringing and family values have some input and personality.

What helped my DDs was drama. Also singing in choirs. Both DDs were encouraged to take part. I've seen my DNs think taking part in such activities is not cool. They actively refuse to take part in anything and no one encourages them to have a go. It's all about exam results and not much else at their schools.

I meant to add that I had no confidence at school. I gained in confidence when I finally realised I wasn't thick. I was a continual disappointment to my family but in my 20s it dawned on me I could do better so I asked for day release to college and started at a low level. I got the course prize and from then on I realised I could get a decent job and qualifications. In all honesty, I looked at others around me and worked out that they all earned more but were hardly geniuses! So I developed the confidence to be like them. DH never had a lack of confidence! Not in his DNA. Grammar school educated like me though.

From my experience of private, grammar and comprehensive I’d say it’s definitely the school. Some schools are just really good at teaching kids how to speak to adults confidently. Private schools certainly have it baked into how they do things day to day.

So I'm not sure it's totally about school. I think upbringing and family values have some input and personality.

DD has been supported and encouraged all her life. Unfortunately, some really nasty and vicious bullying from a former best friend when she was in year 10 completely knocked the stuffing out of her, resulting in self harm, borderline anorexia, anxiety and depression.

She has managed to rebuild her confidence but I feel that people underestimate how much damage bullying can do.

And as I said, my experience is limited to the young people I personally know.

I don't see how a school can teach confidence. My DD1 went into school as a confident 4 year old. Other DC didn't. It's clear to me that schools do pick out the confident ones to do things eventually but all dc are given a chance when they are young. Some are confident enough to grasp what's offered and others shrink back.

I obviously acknowledge bullying is an issue but bullying happens in private schools too so it's never the case thatDC aren't affected in all schools. There's no magic wand in a private school. Some dc obviously need more encouragement but getting away to the best in you can get to and doing well should help with confidence. Taking part in presentations, talking through ideas, doing a year abroad all help. However I'm not convinced any school teaches dc how to do this. What they can do is encourage, have a dynamic curriculum and take performing arts seriously.

I think it's much more complex than some people are confident and some aren't.

People have many parts to their personality. There can be an outwardly competent, high achieving, impressive part.

Hidden away there can be other parts that have all sorts of difficulties, limitations, vulnerabilities, immaturities.

Much of a person's psychological efforts can go on making sure that these other parts never see the light of day.

But even with outwardly confident high achieving people - there can be plenty of relationship difficulties, addictions, debt problems, gambling problems, drink problems, perfectionist problems, workaholic problems.

I don't think it's being a snob to mention objective facts that some universities are better than others. If people were just saying that based on class then I would agree but if it is based on facts then it is not; just as much as it is not snobbery to want doctors who are clever and will not mess up operations rather than those who don't learn how to do surgery properly.

On confidence you will have shy private school children and state school children. I suppose some schools and/or parents help their children have experiences which mean they do not feel out of place in particular environments which they might come across either at university or in their first graduate jobs and adult lives. That is probably a confidence of sorts.

@BumpyaDaisyevna
All sorts of people can have personal difficulties. I don't think anyone says the job success and confidence equals perfection. However for many it can help you get a better job. It's the difference between running a company and being the quiet employee in the corner. Both have the same qualifications but one has stepped out of the comfort zone and you need confidence to do this. The debate is about how people acquire this or is it personality.?

How do you know if someone went to Oxford or Cambridge / how do you know if someone’s child is at Oxford or Cambridge?

They’ll tell you.. Of course there’s university snobbery. Since universities began I’m sure!

I think there is a mistaken eliding of shyness and confidence here. I don’t see them as the same. What I think is hugely important to achievement and wellbeing is self-confidence, ie having a well developed sense of self, trusting your instincts, not feeling inferior to others. You can have all that and still be shy or introverted. Whereas the biggest loudest extroverts are often hiding a shocking lack of self confidence. That development of a robust sense of self happens mostly within the family I think, but despite that I think private schools inculcate a feeling that one is just as good as anyone else socially and in state schools can (not always) do the opposite. That is the herd mentality of the community I think. So a private school person may be shy and hate walking into a crowded room, but once in there it would not cross their mind that they could not talk to anybody in there as an absolute equal, at least.

And for the socially secure and self confident perceived “prestige” matters less, because they are secure in their choices and don’t give a damn what anyone else thinks - why would they? It’s not those random others’ choices!

I have to say I've found the same. The only people who I know where they went to uni (apart from family and 3 close friends from my year at school ) are the ones who went to Oxbridge....because its somehow come up in conversation!

These insights into confidence are fascinating. Thank you all, and please keep them coming. I certainly agree with @Delphigirl that confidence is independent of introversion/extroversion, but I am not getting so much that confidence and extroversion are being elided here.

I think one way that school and by extension HE can help is simply by providing truly equal opportunities. I was only encouraged to do a PhD by a younger academic teaching a make-or-break course module in a scrupulously fair and encouraging manner after two truly awful and blatantly sexist experiences with older men had knocked me badly. (Ironically I learnt later that the young guy was the School’s star researcher and the two sexists were has beens -funny, that) I think bias continues to knock confidence and hope that just being encouraging and seen to be fair can help to some extent. And of course one tries especially with personal tutees.

But the least confident are often the most reluctant to engage with anyone, especially when they need help.

“But the least confident are often the most reluctant to engage with anyone, especially when they need help.”

This breaks my heart as I’d count my DD in this category. They miss out on help as they are too afraid to ask, afraid to look stupid, and in my DDs case, think they should know so shouldn’t admit to not knowing by asking. DD sometimes “zones out” - it’s not a conscious thing. So she sometimes misses stuff and is then embarrassed to ask as feels she should have heard/should know. Which then affects her self confidence and so continues the vicious circle.

I agree this is heartbreaking, and far from unusual. We are here to help. If DD would open up to you about how we (the university as a whole, but I am thinking primarily of the academic side) could help, could you please pass it along? Best wishes to DD

@Delphigirl

I don't quite see it as black and white like this, DD has friends who went to the huge state school 6th forms in Hampshire. They are confident people. They do believe in themselves and can enter a room with confidence. In my life, I've known many like this, including DH who would never doubt himself! I think it is partially about school but there is a problem if DC need a confidence boost and don't get it from anyone.

However part of the equation should be parental support. Many DC have to work extra hard to break out of "don't get flash ideas" and similar caps on ambition. I'm aware my DH ignored his parents, but had the inner confidence to do it. We never felt his parents ever understood him. I think parents should make some effort to engage with DC in a supportive but sometimes critical friend type way if there's a need . Giving guidance and instilling ambition whilst being realistic helps a lot.

One of the problems I find with some intelligent young people is that their general knowledge is poor. They can engage with their own age group, but struggle with anyone else. They often have studied the academics well but they don't know much about anything else which leads to lack of confidence with others. It's partially a narrow curriculum but partly no desire to try anything new, read anything or listen to anything new. Many of the brightest people seem to know a lot about lots of things. That's why I don't really see a PhD as a measure of what a person is really like or what confidence they have.