University snobbery

[nysw]

Just wondering if anyone has come across this from adults/parents?

That is all

Exactly it's about critical thinking and communication that comes through in the process.
I have thoughts about how universities are academic, not necessarily preparation for employment but one things is certain. Employers want curious, intelligent graduates who think critically, ask the right questions... All of these are skills that degrees should provide in abundance.

Absolutely not true in every case. My dd is going to study Arabic - she thinks for her subject Exeter is head and shoulders above everywhere else, including Cambridge which she went to look at and thought was neglected and moribund (the Arabic part of AMES). She didn't even apply with her Astar predictions. Has firmed Exeter and insured Edinburgh.

For stem subject, if it was just merit based, international applicants would flood all top UK universities. Actually, because of the increasing of the east Asia applicants, the average for the MAT score to be interviewed for Oxford Maths has increased 10 in the last 5 years and also the average grade to be interviewed is 10 or more higher than UK applicants.

@Delphigirl “We had this when my ds turned down Southampton for Plymouth for oceanography. He had lots of good reasons for doing so - course suited him better, much more boat time, better access to the ocean, etc etc but he got a lot of push back from others, including some very ill-informed comment on here. He's now almost finished the first year and he has loved every second of it - he told me that he loves the place, the course, the friends he has made - and he can't imagine being anywhere else. Its important to stick with your guns and not be swayed by other people's ideas of 'prestige', I think.”

Your DS sounds brilliant! I actually think what employers look for further down the line is students who make their own choices and can back up why and how and are proactive and independent from their parents. It is great if they want to go somewhere specific and have a drive and a dream they want to pursue. It is that kind of motivation and energy/enthusiasm/passion that makes them stand out.

A PP has said that their daughter has Edinburgh as an insurance choice. Out of interest, is it “below “ Exeter, as in my day ( late 80s) it was one of the top universities requiring the highest grades for some subjects.

It depends on the course

Parents being a snobby are simply idiots.

however in many fields which uni it’s important, not all but for some,big law, oil, etc,doesn’t mean they don’t take from lower ranked, but yes there is a preference.

you need a higher qualification to enter some unis over others as the degree and teaching style differs some what, and you need to be at a higher standard, to be able to achieve there. Again this doesn’t mean any other degree is worth less, simply that’s why there is a preference for some employers.

that in itself rankles a lot of people. Cover it with some parental snobbery and you’re into a mine field.

That was me. Edinburgh in fact gives the same offer as Exeter for her course (Arabic) and by any measure Exeter is the better department for her subject, not least because it is lavishly funded by the sheik of Sharjah, which means it can afford to give many more contact hours of language teaching, fund many more profs and teaching staff making it a large and vibrant place with extensive options, and gives every undergrad student a scholarship of £1500 per year for 4 years to use how they like, but with the intention of funding travel in the Middle East.
she turned down an offer from St Andrews for the same reasons.
So any marginal difference in “prestige” is irrelevant I think given the wider advantages of Exeter, and anyone who knows anything about the very few unis in the UK that offer Arabic know Exeter is highly regarded.

Interesting! Thanks ☺️

These are important issues, @TizerorFizz

How do you think the recruiting/selection differs for STEM? I am sure the interviews etc focus differently but I would have thought that once again training should trump. I do take the point you make on this board that only some Eng programmes provide a pathway to Chartered Eng status, which is relevant for some employers. There may be similar issues in other fields, not just STEM.

Your point about who chooses to commute is excellent. We have more commuters in my School than previously and extrapolating from what I see directly I think there is are class based and cultural issues at play.

Of course one sympathises enormously but to some extent the decision is based in a risk-averse mentality. The students I’m thinking of were good COWI candidates but it never occurred to them to apply. The thinking plays out at every level.

Several white, male friends and colleagues who grew up WC, all successful academics, have told me that they wouldn’t have applied to university if fees had existed in their time. The worry about debt would have overwhelmed them and their DPs. They are well aware of how the repayment plan works and needs based bursaries, etc. But they could not get past the emotional aspects. I found this very sobering.

I agree 100% that when commuting results in a less desirable degree - which is a subjective value - it is a mistake. And an unnecessary one, as uni can be made to work. It has large ramifications.

But people need self confidence in order to appreciate that. I know you developed that confidence the hard way, out of necessity, and I admire that hugely. Not everyone can but we as a society should do more to address this

Out of interest, would an insurance choice not have a lower offer?

If someone isn't keen on the insurance they may just put the higher offer uni.

As a former admissions tutor I see no point to this strategy. If your Firm rejects you and your Insurance has a higher offer, you have missed the Insurance offer by at least two grades. Unless the Insurance programme is desperate for bums on seats they will reject you immediately.

Why would you not use Insurance as it is intended?

PS If you prefer a gap year of course it is fine

That's the general idea yes, but it isn't always that easy! My DS got all very similar offers this year so there wasn't an obviously lower offer to pick. He has ended up with an insurance that is basically asking the same as his firm. I guess at least it doubles the chance that if he just misses out on one grade or something one of them will take him.

My DD's offers were all the same except St A one grade higher (she doesn't want to go there) and SOAS one grade lower (but it is always in clearing anyway). The other three were the same and very easily achievable (ABB and she is predicted 2 Astar and an A). In this case, I think Exeter are more forgiving of a dropped grade than Edinburgh so her insurance is really pretty pointless, especially as she is having a gap year anyway. I think she thought she had to have an insurance so she picked the uni she liked 2nd best.

Having an insurance that is the same or higher than your first choice is madness! I know someone who missed out on their dream place only to also miss their 'insurance' as it was the same offer! Ended up scrambling around in clearing.

So what do you suggest someone does then if they don't have a lower offer? Leave insurance blank? Then if you don't get your firm you're still going to be scrambling about in clearing or taking a year out. At least if you have put another similar one down there's a small chance that one of them might still offer a place whereas if you don't select an insurance at all you've eliminated that chance.

@MrsAvocet From an admissions perspective, the recommendation is to either accept the risk of a gap year or bite the bullet and apply to one degree programme you find acceptable that has lower admissions requirements.
The ‘lower requirements’ are relative. Our offer is higher than AAA and we are one of the standard Insurance Schools for applicants who Firm COWI in our STEM discipline; for the next tier of applicant we are the goal.

The problem only comes when on applying you reject all programmes with lower offers, then don’t achieve your offer. Suddenly your standards change, but the most desirable options are the most difficult to access. It is more prudent to give yourself a realistic back up early on - or prepare for a gap year. Having said all of this, you never know what will happen in Clearing.

One of my twins (silly boy) had Edinburgh as back up which I think gave him the same offer as Bristol as he was so sure he would get his grades. He was proved right and loved Bristol but the back up being the same grades was very risky and not my advice.

On how people get high paid jobs as graduates, I have had to think about that quite a bit in the last few years. My children are some of a group of 9 cousins and the 4 youngest cousins are all at university stage so I have been watching all these young people and my children's friends apply for jobs etc etc and it is not at all easy for many of them to get that first graduate job. Even for me graduating then at the worst time for fifty years (1982 had worst unemployment for 50 years) I had to have 25 law firm interviews and apply to 139 London firms before getting that last offer (and first offer) during the last year of myj law degree. I still regard it as the biggest break of my whole career which is now into its 4th decade.

How to start out is very hard then and now particularly if you want to earn quite a bit of money as loads of good graduates all with high grades and most with good CVs too and plenty also with great personalities are competing.

It is definitely worth looking at linkedin profiles of people in the jobs you want who were hired recently to see what they have. Let me do one of my very random exercises - top law firm trainee solicitor linked in and see what aqree the first few people and where they went

1. Female, probably contextual working class student given the programmes mentioned , first class degree from my university - Manchester, state school.
2. Female, black, Surrey (2/1)
3. Female, Cambridge double first, worked in leading investment company (might not be British from the name)
4. Male, Russian - not easy to summarise or compare as most things done in Russia
5. Female, Durham 2/1, state school (but Hills Rd)
6. Male, UCL first, went to a leading UK boarding school. He looks Chinese but of course might be from the UK.
7. Female, black,Kent u 1st class, state school.

So I suppose the lesson from that is if you are white male self declare as something else if you want to be in with a chance...... eeek. Or may be that law firm or google produce certain trainee solicitors only on my search.
for that firm trainee solicitor pay about £50k and after the 2 years newly qualified pay £125,000.

@MrsAvocet I would expect the main reason you haven't got a lower offer is that you put all the 'big' players for your 5! And / or know the risks but have a plan if your second choice also won't offer lower.

So I suppose the issue is, like my own DC, you actually don't want the uni that's going to give you a lower offer. Fine but have a plan! The student I knew had no lower offer unis and no plan! Chaos ensued and they ended up making a decision under pressure with zero support from their evidently excellent school. Sadly they ended up at a uni where they were very unhappy.

Graduate recruitment is often very structured - cracking the 'process' opens the floodgates. I didn't get any of the prestigious internships I applied for in 2nd year , spent lots of time practicing interviews/process, ended up with multiple graduate offers in my final year. I was also turning down interviews by the end. This was close to a decade ago (I'm in my 30's).

I worked out what they were looking for and had a crib sheet with my formula for every possible interview question, every possible competency. I had loads of scenarios, explaining my thinking process. I've always been strong in verbal pattern recognition.
I also learnt to present my answers in a way that would pass the AI video interviews.

A couple I did at 8 p.m. on a Saturday night, got an invitation to an assessment center an hour later. I highly doubt that a human actually looked at my application - as the video interview link appeared a while after the online tests they'd already decided that my CV and test results were worth progressing with. Even in my current and past firms there was a degree of AI filtering.

I feel sorry for people who may be great candidates but just cant get through the automated conveyor belt. I know many keep failing at the same stage, or get pipped to the post.
It differs in fields obviously I went for tech, finance/accounting and consulting. I don't know about big law.

I still don't get what you have to lose though. If you miss your firm and miss your insurance then you are no worse off than if you miss your firm and don't have an insurance. And surely it is better to have two institutions who might be willing to reconsider your application than one? Maybe that never happens where you work but the admissions tutors at the offer holder days we went to all said that if someone has narrowly missed their offer they go back and look again and will on occasion still be able to offer a place. All being well it shouldn't actually be an issue for DS as his firm should be comfortably achievable, but you never know, shit happens, and I think he is marginally better off by not having quite all his eggs in one basket.
And DS did put some Universities on his application as what he thought were realistic back up plans but then his preferred options made offers considerably below their standard offers - even the one he thought he might not get an offer from at all - and his intended back ups made their standard offer. So he ended up with 5 all very much the same. Nothing he can do about that now!
Obviously in most circumstances the sensible thing is to have a lower offer as your insurance, that's hardly rocket science, but I don't think you can say it is always wrong to do otherwise. My DS isn't the only one in his cohort in a similar position and he's not at a huge school so it can't be that unusual.

Perhaps I misunderstood - of course having any Insurance is no worse than having none.

It sounds like your DS got equivalent offers for a paradoxical reason - the ones expected to be higher were lowered. If the lower offers were intended to be at the Insurance level, he should be in good shape. Best wishes to him

PS we also review narrowly missed offers when we are not full, everyone does. But no one can make promises, and full is full.