University snobbery

[nysw]

Just wondering if anyone has come across this from adults/parents?

That is all

A star A star A

i typed a stars but it didn’t recognise. St Andrews requires two A stars and an A and that’s even if you get an offer! That’s far higher than two As and a B

I do think more prestigious universities have a better career service however many 'vocational' universities which emphasize placements do so as well.

Actually it can be the opposite because some prestigious universities feel they can get by on name alone, whereas less prestigious institutions often have careers services that are better resourced and do more due to the demographics of their student body.

Some of the most successful and well resourced university careers services can be found in ex-polys and 'newer' universities.

More inverse snobbery, insisting that all degrees are the same, only people who are rich and pay their way get into certain ones, or "I can always tell if someone has been to Oxbridge because <insert negative comments>".

I don't see how you cannot take into account prior attainment at school, and then University, when determining achievement.

This may come as a shock to you @gldd but if you apply for a Masters, the majority of universities do not ask for your A level grades. They simply aren't interested.

Someone with an in-depth knowledge of university admissions like @poetryandwine might be able to correct me on this, but I believe it is because there is such a marked difference between school and university style of teaching, and learning, that their relevance is considered minimal. Some students will thrive under this different, more independent style of studying while others will not.

While A level grades tell you something about the standard of students applying to a university, they don't actually tell you very much at all about the quality of a course, the standard of the teaching, or indeed the ability of those students leaving university 3 or 4 years later. Your statement that everyone has an equal chance once they enter an exam hall is demonstrably incorrect – universities give contextual offers for precisely the reason that they know everyone does NOT have an equal chance. To a certain degree (sic) these inequalities are levelled out at university.

It really depends IMO on their target market, degree subject and definition of success. 'Prestigious' universities which have a lot of students studying 'academic' subjects that don't lead to any set careers. So they tend to have better targeted advice for 'generalist' schemes alongside areas of speciality.

I find that universities which are lower ranked and/or focus on vocational subjects tend to have excellent career resources (including specialist knowledge and industry links) in those , but very little for those studying traditional 'academic' subjects.

Again, this doesn't stop people from these universities applying - and employees aren't allowed to give out anything more than generic advice at career fairs anyway. The application processes are usually clearly documented on the website, tips for video interviews, competency based questions etc are all online.

That aside employability also means different things to different people. Studying computer science for instance - an 80K financial services/big tech graduate scheme, and a 30K local IT consultancy are both wins for the university. But one is more competitive and has a harder application process than the other.

@pistonsaremachines however universities in the UK are judged by the same criteria. Graduate Outcomes data is universal across the uk university sector and the metrics that measure this is not decided by the university. They don't get to decide what constitutes a 'positive outcome' or a graduate level job.

This means employability has become a much higher strategic priority for universities and it was the less prestigious universities that really pushed for resources, staffing and employability strategies first.
In some cases the more elite universities are playing catch up - I work with most of the heads and directors of careers at uk universities so can say this with some confidence because it's what they tell me.

I very largely agree with @thing47 . A levels are a piece of the distant past by the time you are applying for a Master’s, and they haven’t been attained on a level playing field. That is why universities make contextual offers.

But this doesn’t entirely contradict the point made by @gldd. PG admissions tutors and employers are interested in the future rather than the past. However your achievements do show your capabilities in context. So I agree with your theory this far, @gldd.

This doesn’t mean your specific university need be known. In fact when (parts of?) the Civil Service shifted to blind recruiting the number of Oxbridge recruits increased, and it wasn’t because of sly references to Colleges, the Boat Race, etc. It was the quality of their applications and interviews that made them stand out. In other words, all those years of tutorials and heavy workloads paid off. In my view, that is how one’s UG accomplishments should be recognised on the job market.

@poetryandwine That was my understanding about other tough grad recruitment schemes too. It turns out Oxbridge still wins the races! I do believe sciences and engineering are different to some extent and of course many don't want or need a masters degree either.

I also think the biggest employment issues surround dc choosing "academic" courses at lower ranking unis. Plus we simply don't have enough jobs for all the arts and drama students. So many unis do have great industry links but it's always where employers need the grads. Where they are ambivalent about what type of grad they want, the competition can be fierce. I think many dc are disappointed with their careers after uni.

I also tend to think the playing field is not levelled if dc don't accept the offer from the "better" uni. What is the point if dc just stay at the old HE college when they could have gone to a better uni for their subject? I can see dc like to stay at home and then work at home and I guess we cannot make dc aim higher. I think those that do and know their worth, they might just be more dynamic.

I can see dc like to stay at home and then work at home

I suspect this may be due to financial constraints, and sometimes cultural ones. The cost of living away from home is prohibitive to some students.

Your first paragraph illustrates exactly the point I was making.
Standard university wide metrics of 'graduate employability' are irrelevant for graduates who want very specific jobs. Take accountancy for example. University A, with a 100% employability rate but all graduates working in small local firms/small businesses, Vs university B, with a 90% employability rate but a large proportion going on to work with the Big4 firms and large company finance graduate schemes. An ambitious graduate would be better off with the latter. Although they look less employable on paper.
Of course these figures are made up , but this is the sort of more detailed information that a prospective student should consider if they want to aim high.

Also @ElaineMBenes it's not just about prestige. Ravensbourne was the lowest ranked UK uni at one time I believe but it's THE place for film and TV. Most productions in the UK have at least one of their alumni on set!
Definitely a competitive university for animation and illustration.
They also offer courses like business management, tailored towards the creative industries.

Now, if someone wanted to go into investment banking , it would be silly for them to pick business management at Ravensbourne. Of course nothing's stopping them from applying to spring weeks and grad schemes but they won't get as in-depth support as, say doing Management or accounting and finance at LSE. The latter is an academically prestigious university yes but financial services is a key graduate destination.

On the other hand, you're unlikely to get fashion merchandising, fashion buying etc tailored advice and opportunities from LSE... You will from Ravensbourne. Fashion is also quite competitive.

Everything needs to be looked at in context, with an end goal in mind.

DD is doing a creative subject not available at Oxbridge, and not all RG unis.
She did well at GCSEs and was encouraged by teachers to choose STeM subjects for A level, and to apply to Oxbridge but she is more interested in art and a creative career. (Which may well be a lower paid option)

Of course these figures are made up , but this is the sort of more detailed information that a prospective student should consider if they want to aim high.

However, large groups of students don't pay any attention to this data or any other consumer data in fact.

I carried out some research recently looking at first generation students and university choice. None of the students in my study referred to using consumer data in their decision making.
Their decisions were based on location (close to home), finances, culture and a sense of belonging.

@JSMill why would you think international students get in with lower grades?

Everything needs to be looked at in context, with an end goal in mind.
Of course.
I've worked in higher education for over 20 years in roles related to careers and employability and student recruitment.

I know how it all works

Cash for courses: top universities recruit foreign students on low grades

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c19d0459-e4dd-4380-98b1-1765db01aac2?shareToken=7ba71e9a7ac8a50404464c268de5eed7

@HelpMeUnpickThis I don't have to think, I know it for a fact. Dh is from a Middle Eastern country and I have watched many of his relative's and friend's children walk into top universities with dire grades. Luckily for my mental health, my older dcs have gone for courses that are unpopular with international dcs but my dd wants to do law and I know lots of international DCs who got into great university with lesser grades.

For some peculiar reason The Times seems to think that all countries in the world have the exact same number of years of schooling.

Fortunately UK universities realise that someone from a country where the highest school year is the equivalent of year 12 will need an extra year to compete for year 1 places. So they offer the extra year - an International Foundation year.

For some reason the Times thinks this is bad.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as consumer data, but your first generation students don't disprove my point. In fact, it supports what I've seen anecdotally that first generation students don't really aim high, or know how the university and graduate job system works. Or how much detail there can be in module choices, work placements, outcomes.

Any 'professional' job, better than their parents is still an achievement and their desired outcome. Even if it's not a competitive graduate role and pays barely above minimum wage. Of course, I don't deny that there are people whose parents worked their way up and are now professionals, their kids although first generation on paper won't face much disadvantage

I'm not sure what you're referring to as consumer data, but your first generation students don't disprove my point. In fact, it supports what I've seen anecdotally that first generation students don't really aim high, or know how the university and graduate job system works. Or how much detail there can be in module choices, work placements, outcomes.

Consumer data is things like graduate outcome data, league tables, rankings ..... all the things you suggest young people should take into consideration when choosing a university.

I wasn't necessarily trying to disprove your point. I was just adding to the conversation. Not everything has to be an argument or disagreement.

I’m not sure I’m all for uni blind recruiting. I went to Durham University and got a 2:2 in a STEM subject. I went on to do a postgraduate degree at Oxford Brooke’s (a more vocational course for my career). I was shocked that in all my essays I got firsts. It was so much easier!
This is only my experience but I do think universities with lower grade requirements make it easier to get higher degree grades.

And all of those things, as discussed earlier are quite shallow and don't give a true picture of what a graduate can expect.
Hence why people turn to forums like MN , or the StudentRoom.
People who have an established network of friends, relatives etc also ask them.

That's why mentorship and personal outreach for students is so important

It is undoubtedly true that it is easier to get a higher degree classification at some universities than at others. The idea with blind recruitment is that if Durham got into your bones, you will excel at interviews and other selection mechanisms.

We had this when my ds turned down Southampton for Plymouth for oceanography. He had lots of good reasons for doing so - course suited him better, much more boat time, better access to the ocean, etc etc but he got a lot of push back from others, including some very ill-informed comment on here. He's now almost finished the first year and he has loved every second of it - he told me that he loves the place, the course, the friends he has made - and he can't imagine being anywhere else. Its important to stick with your guns and not be swayed by other people's ideas of 'prestige', I think.