Foundation Training - medicine

[Feelingblue77]

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-68849847.amp

I saw this article today and as a parent of a 3rd year medic it’s quite worrying.

it sounds like places will be found for everyone in the end but I just wondered if anyone had any experience of this?

*I'm obviously not claiming that anyone living in miserable conditions and poverty is objectively lucky.

Thanks.

I can quite believe it. Some of the best teaching DD received at medical school was in smaller hospitals where staff were very generous and indeed did things like allow her to witness a multiple organ harvest or drag her across the hospital to see a very rare case of muscle wastage that she might never see again in her career. (The unlucky young man was only too happy to talk about his symptoms.) Her experience during her intercalation was that as a result of her medical schools emphases, her team working and communication skills were strong, strong enough that she essentially moved up a degree classification as a result of the peer-to-peer marks she received. One reason DD opted for a less popular deanery is feedback from friends about rotations in some London hospitals being busy and chaotic, leading to an unsatisfactory learning experience. And yes, things are not perfect, but she is enjoying herself and learning a lot.

The trouble as ever is what will the NHS be selecting on. Will she need to coaching and mentoring from senior specialists Karolinska describes? Will her experience of turning up on time, knowing her stuff, pulling her weight, and baking the occasional batch of brownies in a busy but not particularly specialist areas be enough, given how amazingly competitive it is to get on training. Indeed will she actually have a job, given the number of PAs and pharmacists being recruited.

I am not sure why Karolinska mentions deprivation in Belfast unless it is the 18/18 that her acquaintance has got. But it is actually a good example. Salaries are lower than most of the rest of the UK and there is only one medical school. There was a bit of a tradition of Northern Ireland students choosing DDs medical school as a back up. Trouble is they weren't eligible for students loans and indeed apparently not for NHS bursaries either, so had to find it all. They managed, like graduate students manage. The University helped by allowing less well off students to opt for "out" placements with free accommodation in their clinical years, and possibly with bursaries. They worked, extended families helped, they got there. Their resilience will stand them in good stead.

(Interestingly, and possibly off topic, the Irish Government is proposing to fund some extra places at Queens which will help solve the problem. The catch is a requirement to work in the ROI afterwards. Again why are we being so careless with our talented young people.)

I also agree that young people from all sorts of backgrounds can have high aspirations. High aspirations come as a given in schools where everyone expects the top, because their parents are already at the top, which is maybe the source of their find the bus to throw people under skills. But another example is our local tailor, admired for his ability to tailor the awful sixth form girls uniform into something more acceptable. He left the Middle East and worked all hours for a better life for his children, who have all been stunningly successful including one who is doing Registrar training in the field DD would like to enter. The tailor is only too happy to tell me about his son's achievements. His children will live at home till they are married and the son did not take any vacation until he embarked on the crucial last step of the road towards consultancy. The son has entered and won academic competitions all over the world, written papers, presented at conferences, and and and. I can only admire, but worry that my work hard play hard DD , even if equally talented, is not prepared to sacrifice a decade of her life for her career to the same extent.

@Needmoresleep I do ST4 recruitment for my specialty each year, and your DD sounds like a completely normal, successful candidate. Obviously if she is going for a hugely competitive specialty like cardiology or derm, she’ll need courses, publications, etc, but for most medical specialties the average IMT who has achieved an average amount of stuff will be appointable. Can’t speak for surgery, but non-high flying surgical SHOs do seem to be appointed.

She should get some advice on planning her application about 12 months before she actually plans to apply, and ask her educational supervisor for a mock interview. But it is absolutely achievable. We didn’t fill all of our ST4 posts in the first round this year so if she’d applied to us she’d likely have got a job.

Let's hope that this years F2 all end up with jobs in August. I've found the last few months hard, listening to ex students tell me of their lack of training spot (even when they were in the top 20% of exam results). GPs qualifying this year who can't find a job as a GP. But I'll try and be hopeful for them if people say everyone will be employed somehow.

And @Karolinska daughter of immigrants here too. I work around intense poverty every day and find it hard when people don't realise the extent of what that means in this country. Especially as it's got so much worse in the last few years. Apologies to you as you obviously do understand- and your son sounds incredible. Living just on the loan and NHS bursary is not easy.

To be fair mumsneedwine Oxford is very good indeed with financial support and my memory is foggy but I’m pretty sure it continued right the way through.

Doesnt’t stop me feeling bad. Worse in retrospect as I didn’t look at the numbers at the time: he just said he was ok and that doing the cafe shifts meant he could fund a social life as well as get by, and I didn’t turn his upside down to prove he had spare change in his pockets.

They are fantastic - why I shepherd them that way if I can (their outreach is amazing). They have fantastic alumni who help too. But because medicine depends so much on UCAT they still have to apply to their strengths, which makes it hard sometimes. Great UCAT = Bristol application, but we need to ensure they'll get help before applying there as too pricey.

I'm still finding it tough this year to be excited for my offer holders. I fear for their future careers. But hope I'm wrong.

Saschka, thank you. The thread has been invaluable. I don't know how much mums contribute at this stage, but it is good to be informed and encouraging.

There is a level of background panic which seems to have been infecting a good proportion of the cohort. Random allocation of F1 places will not help. "Equality" is one thing, but merit needs to come into play, otherwise what is the point. And that merit needs to include things like resilience, empathy, and the ability to pull your weight, as well as conference papers and the like.

F1 may be a good thing. Too busy to do anything but to get on with it. The responsibility is awesome. Within her first few weeks when taking over for a night shift DD had to call the Registrar to ask why they were treating a patient who was clearly dying. And then confirm the death to relatives who had been given false hope. Most now seem more positive though there is sympathy for the lovely but perfectionist colleague whose stress levels remain sky high. Your advice sounds sensible. Not least because she needs to absorb and process her experience so far, to be sure of where she might want to go.