Foundation Training - medicine

[Feelingblue77]

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-68849847.amp

I saw this article today and as a parent of a 3rd year medic it’s quite worrying.

it sounds like places will be found for everyone in the end but I just wondered if anyone had any experience of this?

@Saschka sorry, I sound very mean. Not aimed at you. Just totally frustrated that our young people have been so let down.

Wages less than being an elf at Lapland UK. Jobs being taken by non doctors. And being treated like children if they dare to complain. Be kind, one team. Never seems to count for them. Do as you're told, shut up and take the shit. Well no, they won't anymore thankfully. The fight back has begun !

IMT criteria for next year

I actually owned as a medical student (married to a non-doctor who was not a student). That’s because house prices have rocketed, and mortgage criteria have tightened. We had a 105% mortgage with Northern Rock, on a £110k flat, in 2002. DH was on £23k, we borrowed 5x his salary.

I am well aware that’s not an option for anybody these day, medic or not!

@Saschka 😊 I think that, v clumsily, is what I've tried to say. Life as a young doctor now bears v little resemblance to 15 years ago (probably less). To get any job now you will v likely have to move 100s of miles every time. No chance of buying a property as no way of saving a deposit.

It's only going to get worse as more medical
students graduate. There are no more jobs so training log jams will get worse. V v v few SHO jobs now. And locum work drying up.

Yet, we need more doctors. We have those doctors, trained and ready. It's almost like it's being done on purpose.

My daughter is buying! Possible, where she is, to both save and then buy. And it's not even the cheapest area in the UK. That honour goes to the North East.

Longer term plan is to pay off the mortgage so the property is essentially a savings vehicle, so she would have a more substantial deposit when she eventually settles.

(Not sure of the relevance, other than a resistance to the parade of gloom. In many parts of the country others would see a junior doctors wage as a good one. The issue is more the hours. They are brutal.)

@mumsneedwine that’s true for all people under 30 though, not just medics - that same flat we bought in Brixton for £110k in 2002 is currently worth £600k.

No doctor salary increase is going to fix that - it wouldn’t be affordable on a single salary with no deposit even if you’re earning £100k.

Absolutely right Saschka. My DC are currently experiencing the horrors of the London rental market with no short term release from it in view, and they are not on salaries people would sneeze at tbh, and all have secure jobs (well unless the doctor DS can't get a consultant job in four years time, if he gets through training that is).

I guess another counter to the gloom is the fact that not only does my own DS love his job still, but very few of his peers seem to regret their choice. Arguably they're through the pain barrier - not sure. But I was with him last week and asked if he would want to do anything else and the answer was a resounding no. That was good to hear.

Twenty three year olds quite rightly want to (and should be able to) have a social life, usually with peers from their old uni. Work to live don't live to work and all that

I can only assume you are not a doctor. 1 in 2 weekends for 5 years rotered annual leave ( this was all 20-25 years ago). The idea of a social life even vaguely resembling that of non medic friends was laughable. Have you read " this is going to hurt ?".

@Needmoresleep is your DD buying with no help from parents? Hats off if she is managing to do that on an F1 salary.

Neurodiversitydoctor correct assumption. I'm not. I'm guessing that you are. I bought that book for my DS when he was sixteen or so but didn't read it myself, just the back cover.

I think it's relatively possible to get an understanding of what's involved given that I have a number of DC aged from early thirties down to twenty two, all in London or about to be after finishing university. So I have an idea of what young people who've worked hard want (and imo deserve) after leaving uni and have a decent grip of what the early stages of being a doctor involves, albeit vicariously. They still have a life to live at that age. This is the summer of their lives: work hard, play as hard as the former allows. Even the DC of mine who has worked continuously in central London hospitals needs to have a life outside work to enjoy, as do all of my DCs' friends pursuing a medical career. DS still manages to socialise with his old friends from uni. It's not impossible - it takes organisation though. But had he been posted to Inverness or North Wales he would have had a sudden cessation of regular interaction with a social group formed over a number of key years and that would have made him far less happy day to day, which would certainly impact his performance at work. They haven't signed up for any form of extremist religion, they've merely signed up for a job in the NHS. The NHS needs to do some joined up thinking fairly fast and maybe not take it's younger generation for granted.

It's a bit grating when older people justify current work conditions with those of their own experience years ago. The fact that so many, many young people can't own their own home - the maths simply not computing - acts as a major disincentive in terms of sacrifice for work. There is no direct comparison if only because of that single factor.

My F2 medic is doing just that and off to Australia for a year at Christmas as there are not enough jobs in further training ( from what I understand there is a shortage all the way up now, so a bottle neck lower down).
Fingers crossed for me and the NHS she comes back after her year there... she's also going with 5 medic friends so the brain drain is sadly very real .

Yes and congratulations to those who have blanked the demands of the junior doctors' strike action.

I actually made that very point on a course I was on on Friday also see University fees.

On your other point, I only told my parents (and actually my DP now DH) a fraction of what was going on in my professional life. I might kindly suggest that your perception is skewed by only being given the highlights. Again watch "this is going to hurt" it's on i-player see how the charecter Shruti talks to her DPs.

The problem with the whole F1 situation is that big cities train doctors but every hospital needs many FY1/FY2 s to function. Including and perhaps especially areas of the country with low levels of higher education participation, like the North East. Scotland is different. Remember these 23/24 year olds have far more resources than the communities they serve and are far more mobile, spending time in smaller hospitals in with different demographics is good for thoer training (and they are still training) When I graduated 25 years ago we all wanted London jobs, I had never lived outside the M25 we couldn't all get them

Ok sorry you have lost me now, what does this mean ?

Wondering about this thread and can a female trainee contemplate having children in their early twenties or would this in reality make a career impossible? How would you deal with nuseries/schooling etc. when being forced to move around the country or work incredibly long hours?

I am curious as I have known a few derogatory comments aimed at female doctors (which were appaling) about trainees having maternity leave during training and being more concerned with child care and parenting than the job. I was hoping these attitudes didn't exist any more but if we have a training path that basically precludes child birth during early twenties won't these attitudes persist?

Placemarking as dd wants to do medicine, she's in year 10 and might still change her opinion. Reading threads like his makes me want to dissuade her but at the very least I'll show her these posts. She's very capable and I'd hate to see her ground down by an ineffective, inefficient and exploitive bureaucratic system as the NHS seems to be. Very sad indeed, being a doctor has always been her dream. Sounds more like a living nightmare.

Many issues being conflated here. Purchasing power particularly with housing costs is a major shift for millenniums and subsequent generations, particularly in some major cities but as said by PP that is not going to be resolved by salary increases to the level of investment bankers of the same age. Hospital accommodation of course would help but it has n’t been free for quite some time except for on-calls.

Randomness of placements with lack of control aggravated by errors in allocation is of course an issue. I referred to it as Kafkaesque before. However geographical separation is nothing new for ambitious medical couples including living in different countries. Specialist training posts need to be augmented particularly for some specialities but there will remain the issues of insufficient training capacity and a now predominantly female workforce at junior level with many needing parttime contracts. No easy solution. Plus of course junior doctor strikes have contributed to tiredness and retirements of senior medics.
It is great that workforces including doctors negotiate for their conditions and there has been that of loss of purchasing power for the UK medical profession. However doctors particularly junior doctors are relatively well paid in this country compared to most European countries. Some informative graphs here for those who are interested including comparison adjusted to purchasing parity https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/08/11/doctors-salaries-which-countries-pay-the-most-and-least-in-europe In those countries medicine remains in demand as a profession by the most academic students despite foreknowledge.

So if junior doctor demands are not met in full, they are still better off than many of their European peers. Changing to other professions or Australasia or the USA / Canada may be preferred by some UK trained doctors, again that is nothing new, although often the grass is not greener for longerterm prospects. Australasia in particular recruit junior doctors from abroad to fill gaps for geographical locations that are not desirable to their home trained doctors. Plus specialist training posts are in short supply and difficult to obtain, particularly for foreign doctors. Sound familiar?

Generally idealism at medical school entry does morph according to the realities of life so many adjust their careers accordingly.

PAs, I refer to my PP for training requirements. It is 5 years including the bioscience or healthcare related degree or, if not those degrees, sufficient relevant work experience. Of course the academic entry bar is lower but so are the highest salaries they can achieve compared to doctors. Extending healthcare professional opportunities to more young people is for the greater good. It also provides an option for bright young people who did not have the life chances to achieve the academic standard for medical school.

Most trainees wait until they have their " number" eg: place on a training programme which are regional and their post graduate exams before starting a family.

You say that, but honestly I would do it all again tomorrow. I can't imagine another job that would fufil me to the same extent.

That is lovely to hear @Neurodiversitydoctor.

and I think that once you get there maternity leave from the NHS is an absolute dream, protected, well paid with a guarantee of part time hours on your return. Also dealing with one tiny baby is a walk in the park compared to being a junior dr So swings and roundabouts.

You say that, but honestly I would do it all again tomorrow. I can't imagine another job that would fufil me to the same extent.
Echoed plus of course there are many routes to fulfilment allowed by medicine. And as a clinical academic I realise that I am in a privileged position for purchasing power compared to the extraordinarily bright scientists I work with.

@sendsummer

www.universityworldnews.com/post-mobile.php?story=20240403113258777

Pas do not need a science degree. Sadly. But can take your gall bladder out all on their own.

@MyGelatoMaker my DD loves her job. And would love to keep doing it for ever. So just needs some jobs to be available. Or she'll have to go do it elsewhere.

So many of my ex students have left the NHS to go train abroad as they couldn't get into their speciality here. What a waste of talented young people.