Uni has cancelled Dads course

[MixedPeel27]

Not sure what we are supposed to do now.

Uni has just announced that they will no longer be offering DDs degree, she is in her second year of three.

Some lecturers are being made redundant this summer and others have openly said they are looking to leave because they know they won't have a job much longer.

No clear info from the Uni about what will happen to students currently in their first and second year, except that they will be offered "other appropriate modules", but these are unlikely to be specifically for her subject which is quite narrow and specific. It's part of a wider department but they are in fact closing the whole department.

It's particularly upsetting for DD as the third year counts for 70% of her degree.

I don't understand how they can do this? She literally has no choice but to stay there and do some random modules she has no interest in, to finish her degree. She isn't doing it to just get a qualification, she really wanted to study this topic and learn.

That's secondary school dressed up in another name. Hugh difference in intellectual development between third and fourth year at my University. Wouldn't happen with a two year degree.

Academics also need to research, attend conferences.

Some people have no effing idea about universities and how they work.

Degrees completed in two years for the same cost (£28k). Expand academic staff numbers slightly and it should be workable. Shouldn't it?

A - no demand (a few providers do have this option)
B - fees are capped to LESS than the equivalent for a 3 year degree (2 x £11k vs 3 x £9k)

Utilising premises to some extent is a good idea, however. One of the things my uni is doing right so far is that it’s found a sweet spot on this. We rent out some of the lecture theatres, etc over the summer but it does not affect staff very much (except those who are paid to work with the i coming groups).

Perhaps there could be more of this across the sector?

In addition to the good points@titchy makes, a two year degree is less effective intellectually. The brain requires consolidation time to digest knowledge. 36 weeks of instruction in two years is not very effective.

I am now curious to compare term lengths in the US and UK so I will be back with some data shortly

OK.

In the UK a semester (outside of Oxbridge) is typically 12 weeks long. In North America it is typically 14 weeks or longer. Some world ranked universities such as UCLA and UC San Diego (but not Berkeley) have academic years comprised of three 10 week quarters.

So: UK has 24 week academic year with three yrs to a Bachelor’s degree. North America has a 28-30 week academic year with four years to a Bachelor’s degree. The Americans do general education during the first two years, but at the ranking universities it is the norm to have some Advanced Placement which is roughly the equivalent of A levels. The Y2 general courses far exceed A levels and one can also begin specialising then.

This is consistent with the goals of various elected British governments and probably a necessity for the highly desirable goal of social mobility. It is very much not a criticism. But as it is, North American students already get 4 x 28 instead of 3x24 weeks of instruction for the typical first degree. China follows the North American template. We will lose out internationally if we try to take short cuts like two year degrees. (Of course a few, particularly highly motivated mature students, can do a two year degree or other efficient pathway when needs must. That isn’t the issue)

@titchy The fees cap could be addressed with political will. The no demand is interesting. Might that change as a trend in a way people predict more students may start to attend universities close to their homes to save accommodation costs?

@poetryandwine Noted! As a society we need good thinkers and innovators.

@Astridspuzzle That's why I said expand the number of academic staff. There was no suggestion that you forego the conferences. Also, in the model I'm most familiar with, which is England, the majority of degrees are three year in duration. Do you feel those students are getting a lower quality experience than elsewhere with the lack of a fourth year?

I like your openness to ideas, @EwwSprouts . Your underlying premise that something must change is certainly correct.

@poetryandwine Interesting figures. USA students, at most universities, are paying for an extra year of higher level study but receiving what the UK provides through school? In essence both therefore provide similar degree level studies for three years, albeit they benefit from more weeks teaching in those years.

Are small numbers arts courses such as the OP's DD's facing the same financial pressures in the USA?

@poetryandwine Thank you!

@EwwSprouts Interesting that Buckingham do this and look where they are in league tables. If anyone moves to this I’m not sure they will be respected degrees. They could be useful but summer vacation work or internships are gone.

I think this used to be true, @EwwSprouts , but no longer.

The theory was that English students do 13 yrs of secondary and three years to the first degree; in NA it is 12 + 4. (Apologies to Scotland). Back when 10% of British did HE and A levels were much more substantial, the theory worked.

But for the excellent reasons I discussed above A levels measure different things now. At the same time, it is the norm for American applicants to RG equivalent universities to do Advanced Placement (a social problem, because AP is less available in deprived areas). The starting levels are close. (America does have more unis at different levels than the UK does. I am not talking about those. The flagship state universities are pretty uniformly of good to outstanding standard)

Even if you only count Y2, Y3, Y4, (which is a mistake IMO as there is real content in Y1 US unis beyond UK high school), an extra two weeks/ term is an extra semester of tuition.

@poetryandwine Thanks for the clarification. Much to think about. Not that I am in a position of influence!

The sector will include everything that produces creative content and culture - so the IT referred to here will be things like video games/CGI etc (IT that supports the financial sector is included in their figures). However you need people who are good at art to design a video game and people who are good at music to write the score - you can't have one without the other. When netflix or hollywood make a film they need a vast range of skills from people who can design sets and costumes to the people who can make them; people who can compose the background music and theme tune and the people who can play it,plus the sound and camera techs and the casting agents and specialist logistics firms - its not just the actors.

If you don't include these people in the sector contribution it is the same as saying that the financial sector is just the client facing bankers and iinvestment managers and ignoring the back office staff/accountants/IT etc who do the vast majority of the work.

The creative sector is vast because it needs all of these supporting roles. This provides employment and contributes to the economy on a huge scale but it still needs the musicians and artists and actors who provide the front end and if we don't start investing in training we will lose our leading edge and work will go elsewhere.

The Telegraph article is more nuanced than that and I completely agree, as a software developer.
The media, initiatives etc keep pushing 'code code code', they're in cahoots with a massive cottage industry of training providers that provide things you can learn for free on the internet.
Code is just a tool. What we need is problem solvers,. creative thinkers. Instead people are obsessed with code and think that just because they can write a couple of scripts they're fully fledged programmers.
If you want your child to be a good programmer don't make them code let them play with Lego!
There's also a reason why CompSci grads have such a high unemployment rate FYI. Many can pass their assessments but don't have the ability to do it professionally. It's a craft.

Have the university actually announced course closures? That is terrible. At the very least, it should be taught out. Unbelievable..

They can’t force the staff to stay and if it’s a specialist subject they can’t get staff from another degree to cover.

Staff are leaving in droves from UoK. The institution is making redundancies and has pivoted to teaching focused so any staff who enjoy research (most) are jumping ship as quickly as possible. It's a shame, their financial situation has been severely mismanaged and there are a lot of staff and students suffering as a result.

I would also be looking into whether she can get refunds on tuition fees.

Doesn’t surprise me. Will be interesting to see if this happens elsewhere in the coming months or years.