Uni has cancelled Dads course

[MixedPeel27]

Not sure what we are supposed to do now.

Uni has just announced that they will no longer be offering DDs degree, she is in her second year of three.

Some lecturers are being made redundant this summer and others have openly said they are looking to leave because they know they won't have a job much longer.

No clear info from the Uni about what will happen to students currently in their first and second year, except that they will be offered "other appropriate modules", but these are unlikely to be specifically for her subject which is quite narrow and specific. It's part of a wider department but they are in fact closing the whole department.

It's particularly upsetting for DD as the third year counts for 70% of her degree.

I don't understand how they can do this? She literally has no choice but to stay there and do some random modules she has no interest in, to finish her degree. She isn't doing it to just get a qualification, she really wanted to study this topic and learn.

My son has taken a two year break between his degree and masters working in his field. I'd better give him a nudge to make sure his university is running the masters course this year 🙈

Can someone explain the maths regarding universities making losses on students?
My DS is at university, and he has about 9 hours of contact time per week. Lectures have about 40 people in the room, and seminars have about 20. That’s a lot of students paying £9k per year.

Is it just the niche courses with only a handful of students that lose money?

We have too many underperforming unis. We need to close those down and spend the money on the good ones.

Underperforming by which measure?

I agree there is mismanagement. I just wrote loads about how the funding mechanism has changed drastically and doesn't account for soaring costs but I don't think anyone is actually interested in the details so deleted it as don't have time to get into a debate

How much profit are they making on each of those things @moomoomoo27 ?

@SOWK is correct: when a university is preparing to discontinue a programme or unit it has a fiduciary responsibility to existing students. Ordinarily enough structure is retained to allow them to finish.

If the uni is actually on the verge of disappearing students have no leverage but if it will survive in some form they can and should make sure these responsibilities are enacted. They should see exactly what is on offer and be prepared to go to OIA sooner rather than later if its guidance is not followed. OIA is user friendly!

Rough rule of thumb (you can do your own maths), a full time lecturer will typically be expected to teach 6 hours a week. On-cost salary of a lecturer B grade around £70k. 9 contact hours a week therefore costs approx £100k - 11 students just to cover the lecturer costs. In addition there are professional service staff costs (I assume your student offspring like their grades to be input, their IT and VLE login to be created and maintained, their applications processed, their awards conferred, their classrooms cleaned, their alum dept to keep in touch, they presumably attended open days, saw adverts, used the library etc etc etc). So that's probably another 8-9 students to cover PS staff. Then there's non-staff costs - maybe another 3-4 students to cover those (way more if it's science - their stuff costs a fuckton of £££££!).

So yes, the 40 student classroom based course probably is making money, but it will be subsiding the smaller or more expensive courses.

I'm sorry though OP - that is spectacularly crap - they should enable all current students to continue - and have I think said they will, but obviously they're not guaranteeing she gets the modules she's interested in.

Sadly despite all the corruption (which is clearly appallingly executed given that most unis are on the bones of their arses....) we'll see more and more of this, and more and more mergers over the next few years.

Universities spend an awful lot of stuff on behind the scenes costs. So our uni pay something staggering like 20% of all fees to student wellbeing and possibly the SU. Then Admin staff, cleaners, porters, security, accommodation staff, marketing team, marketing materials, admissions team, library staff and books, computers, study spaces, paying staff to facilitate exam boards, staffing the canteen and various other food booths, cafes around campus. The heating costs for the various buildings have gone through the roof, some buildings the finance borrowed for building them is still being paid off. IT staff, the blackboard software licensing costs, payment to TurnItIn. Probably loads more stuff I can’t think of.

Blimey, wish I only had to teach 6 hrs a week and got paid 70k a year. You can triple the first number and nearly halve the second! 😁. And I’m a senior lecturer.

They don't get paid £70k. That was oncost which includes NI, pension etc. Most will be on maybe £45k unless they are senior/ professor. Many will be on a lot less if they are early career. And if a university is not a research university or has diverse income then yes - basically they make no profit.

£70k is on-cost not actual salary.

Yes of course - I forgot bursaries! Unis are expected to spend a significant amount (25% or so) of fees above the baseline of £6k on financial support to students.

Ah yes, sorry…..possibly it does cost the uni 70k to employ me then. I know they’re always talking about pension costs!

https://wonkhe.com/blogs/hesa-spring-2023-financial-data/

If you want to look up your universities

There's a pdf on university of Kent closing courses. I can't share but you can Google. 19 courses going

Kent has been struggling for years and has previous form for cutting art courses https://www.a-n.co.uk/news/university-kent-close-school-music-fine-art/

What will the full time lecturer be doing the rest of the time?

What will the full time lecturer be doing the rest of the time?

As I said this is a very rough rule of thumb, and will differ from institution to institution, but lecturer contracts are roughly a third teaching, a third research and a third 'admin' (this will include personal tutor responsibilities, office hours, meetings, course / module leadership, rep on uni boards etc). So around 500 hours a year on each activity.

The 500 hours a year on teaching will include preparation and marking, often one hour timetables in the lecture theatre will mean one hour prep and one hour marking. So 500 hours teaching, divided by 3 is around 155 contact hours - 6 per week assuming 24 teaching weeks.

This full time lecturer, who teaches both HE and FE, will be teaching for the rest of the time too. 6 hours on Monday, 6.5 on Tuesday, 6 on Wednesday, 7 on Thursday and (only) 4.5 on Friday, which gives me 2 hours a week to interview prospective students.

I did think that 6 hours a week seemed very little.
Both my parents were university lecturers back in the 70s and 80s and they did a lot more than 6 hours teaching I’m sure.

My institution also uses @titchy ’s scheme. However UG projects and theses have become increasingly popular in recent years and don’t get credited anywhere (supervising PhD students counts as research). Some terms these students take 10 hrs/wk and of course MSc students take this time over the summer also. Like so much, all of this is down to good will.

£9k doesn't fully cover the cost, more like £12k. When he's not in lectures, he's using the library and that costs money to run.

This full time lecturer, who teaches both HE and FE, will be teaching for the rest of the time too. 6 hours on Monday, 6.5 on Tuesday, 6 on Wednesday, 7 on Thursday and (only) 4.5 on Friday, which gives me 2 hours a week to interview prospective students.

That's a horrendous workload. Not at all normal in the university sector for a lecturer with a research expectation. I assume you're not research active, and in a college rather than a uni?

I probably spend on average two days a week teaching and three days a week course admin which includes answering student emails, tutorials.

Right on both counts. All three, in fact - it is a horrendous workload. Half my week is spent teaching HE, and admin just gets slotted in wherever I can find space. I'm a course manager too.