Is Oxbridge to be avoided?

[ThunderclapNewman]

Firstly, I should say it is obviously up to DC where they apply to and where they choose to go. And our job to support.
DC is considering Oxbridge. The course is not available at all uni's and the O&C variants would be a good, although not perfect, fit - but nowhere is. The small city, slightly sheltered vibe would also suit.
Having followed the O&C threads over many years, the feeling on here seems to increasingly be that Oxbridge is something to avoided, due to huge amounts of work compared to other places, the stress that comes with this and the expectations, the difficulty of obtaining a high degree classification (combined with higher levels of blind recruitment), the lack of time for socialising etc.
DH went to Oxbridge in the 90's and simply doesn't recognise the issues with workload (non-STEM). DC also interested in non-STEM). Have things changed so much since then?

There have always been students who work much harder than others and/or get stressed. In the late 90s, I know my humanities subject was a lot ‘easier’ than some other subjects. The amount of physical time I had to spend in lectures/tutorials was less than many of my friends courses and only 1 essay to write each week (I’m sure others had 2 a fortnight or sometimes 2 a week). There was also far less material to read each week compared with my friends reading English. So workload has always been subject dependent.

Today, I work with three people who have just graduated with Oxford law degrees. They all said it was really hard, but one played a sport at university level and the other two did loads of extra curricular/socialising. So they clearly had time away from their studies.

Absolutely depends on the student. Some thrive, some crumble. Most definitely heavier workload.

Shorter term times than other universities though!

Of course not. My DD rowed, played tennis and had a social life. She received funding for her sports trips and kit. She lived in college owned accommodation for all 3 years in a beautiful location.

She had to submit two essays or pieces of written week each week then have one to one or one to two tutorials to discuss them. Some find the work load easy, she found it challenging. We were discussing this yesterday and she wouldn't have changed her mind and studied elsewhere with the benefit of hindsight.

Definitely not to be avoided. I had an amazing time at Oxford and a ds likewise (there now). There was so much offered on a plate to get involved in and I, personally, found plenty of time to get involved in it. Ds likewise. I can’t speak for STEM, though, although I read Law (or jurisprudence, as they called it), which is supposedly a heavy workload. Given that you are only allowed to get paid employment in the university holidays, and most colleges can accommodate you for the entire duration of your degree for much less cost than most universities, due to the short terms (although having to vacate your room every term is a pain), there is a lot of stress taken off you during term time to enable you to work hard and play hard. Whilst not everyone is happy in that environment, therefore, there are plenty who enjoy their time there immensely.

Apart from the added aggravation of applying in the first place, Oxford and Cambridge should be every bit as much in the radar as anywhere else if you like the look of the degree content. The long holidays also give plenty of time to get paid work or work experience, too.

Some Oxbridge students find the tutorial system stressful, usually the ones uncomfortable exposing their weaknesses. If you see tutorial as a place to get feedback on your work and to learn, it is an unparalleled opportunity. Some tutors give more robust feedback than others, but it is about the work not the person.

Agree that workloads vary by discipline.

Where did you get the idea that it is difficult to get a high degree classification at Oxbridge, OP? This was true once upon a time, and even into the early 2010’s in certain Cambridge STEM subjects. Nowadays both O and C award amongst the highest proportions of Firsts and 2.1’s in the UK. One year I saw a table showing that certain Oxford disciplines had made 100% of degree awards in these categories.

Something like 96% of Oxbridge students get a 2.1 or higher, and 32% or so ger a first, so that shouldn’t be an issue. You might expect there to be more firsts perhaps, compared to other unis, given that both are stuffed to the gunnels with extremely able students.

I was at Oxford back in the 80s, and I don’t recall the workload being crippling (doing history), and when I went to the open day with DD3, it didn’t seem to have changed all that much. However, DD1 is at Cambridge doing a STEM subject and has very little time to do anything other than work.

The blind recruitment thing is interesting. It does seem a bit ironic that now that widening participation is finally delivering a more diverse intake to Oxbridge, the benefits in going are being eroded!

I loved the fact that over the 8 week term, your work was so regularly scrutinised and commented on by your tutor. I also enjoyed the back and forth of tutorials. It’s quite a privilege to get so much direct attention. I must have been lucky with my tutors, too, because I always found any criticism constructive and helpful, so could build on that for the following week’s essay.

It was in relation to comments that DCs at other unis found obtaining a 2:1 took a lot less effort.
I am concerned about tales of students working all through Christmas holidays, which are long of course. This would not suit mine! Appreciate this is not all. But worried that this is what is perceived as normal.

I went to Oxbridge and then a red brick and the red brick was easier. But I also did a degree with the OU and found two of my modules as difficult as Oxbridge.

I didn't know anyone at Oxbridge who didn't have a social life and hobbies. Felt more like everyone wasted a champion athlete / incredible musician etc! A lot of the opportunities were fantastic.

I don't think saying which subject is likely to out them.

I found it varied significantly depending on both student and course.

I did a STEM course, was very ill for a lot of my degree, did do some extra curriculars (not insane amounts like some people), spent 3rd year applying for jobs and still got a 2i - admittedly only just.

The only people who I know who got 2iis missed a lot of work.

I did definitely have to work significantly harder than school friends who did worse than me at other unis for my scraped 2i.

Immediately after my degree I probably wouldn't have gone back and done it again as the stress made me pretty unwell. (Re health: I do wonder if it was something else on top as I have done roles that most people would identify as incredibly high stress since then without equivalent consequences for my health.) But with more hindsight and the ongoing benefits it offers I think I probably might do it again. I'm still not sure.

In terms of non-STEM subjects, there was a significant difference between people doing subjects that required one essay a week and those that had to do 2 or 1 plus significant amounts of language work.

It also depends how perfectionist they are - those people who were perfectionists suffered for their entire degree for that.

Not to be avoided, but like any university carefully considered. My husband went to Oxford in the 1980s and dare I say it was a different beast - so many fewer people went to uni back then and of course you had grants and no tuition fees. He was the first in his family to go to the university and had minimal assistance and guidance from them (he did go to a private school however, though he always said they never thought he was Oxbridge material).
Nowadays we tend to give our children a lot more (maybe too much!) support. And are more involved (maybe too much again) with choosing which universities to apply to and certainly a parent can become overly invested as well documented on the threads here. It's hard not too with the arduous Oxbridge application process.
There's so much info on YouTube by the universities themselves and current and past students one can get more of a flavour than ever before. I see plenty of them involved in sport, societies, other interests. Certainly you get cases of burnout, which I'm sure is the true in many universities. But by and large I think that students go in with eyes open, understanding the work required.
Knowing the teaching method, knowing the course content, knowing the workload, understanding oneself and their desires and suitability is key. I would never discourage a child from applying to any university if their academic record suggests they have a chance of an offer. And Oxbridge is just one of five choices, and those other four are probably of excellent reputation and calibre too. We know there can be a very fine line between an offer or not, so it is always important to temper one's hopes with reality, and not 'big it up' as the ultimate measure of success.

Depends on the kid.

I didn’t go to oxford and really struggled at uni. However the issue for me was making time for a heavy course load when also working a lot of hours in a shop to make ends meet, cooking and cleaning for myself and essentially running a household.

Seems to me in a college environment where the food shopping, cleaning etc is taken care of so all you have to worry about is doing the coursework and then getting involved in extra curriculars that would more than make up for having extra courses.

Only other thing to be aware of is family background, is your kid is privately educated they will likely fit right in. I grew up on a council estate and some of my brighter mates went to oxbridge and had a rubbish time socially, as they didn’t meet people they had anything in common with. Have had the same feedback from some of the more recent grads at work, being left out of fancy parties and ski trips etc is no fun at all. Not the case across the board but is something that comes up.

huge amounts of work compared to other places
I have DC doing similar STEM courses at Cambridge and a non-Oxbridge university. Yes, there is a significant difference in workload; most noticeably in the first year. The shorter terms don't mitigate this because the DC at Cambridge does much more work in the Christmas and Easter vacations.

the stress that comes with this and the expectations
This depends on the individual. If they tend to compare themselves with their classmates then it could be more stressful. Cambridge provide rankings with each exam mark which adds to this.

the difficulty of obtaining a high degree classification
Cambridge is obsessed focused on academic rigour and resisting grade inflation. Many students who get a 2:1 probably would have got a 1st elsewhere. Students who get a 2:2 probably would have got a 2:1 elsewhere.

However, there are also many advantages to Oxbridge (including the value of the supervision system) and for many students these outweigh the above.

For DS, Cambridge was the only place with the course structure he wanted.

In relation to the 'fitting right I'm comments I think plenty of people will say, correctly, that the intake is somewhat more rounded now.
Aware, but not concerned that a non-selectve state child from a 3-bed semi will meet lots of people with a more privileged background.

I’m talking about discussions I’ve had with grads (2 of them) who finished this summer and really struggled with their mental health feeling like a fish out of water.

It’s not about an ability to get on with people (I am sure your child is lovely and could get on with anyone), it’s about having stuff in common. Like if they are good at skiing, this is a big social divider. Or also a lot of people who have been to the big public schools will know each other already from rugby tours etc.

As I say for some people this isn’t a problem, for others it really is and is worth thinking about.

You get exactly the same type of chumminess at Durham, St Andrew's, Bristol etc etc. Some of them are broad minded enough to make friends with the vast majority who didn't go to the same circle of schools.They quickly get over their insecurity after they've asked which school X or Y went to and then realise that X and Y have never heard of their school either!

Yes, this is a light hearted response as Oxbridge has done a huge amount of work to widen participation and to get rid of the myths. DD happily mixed with friends who are unbelievably wealthy compared to her, alongside others like her who were the first to get a place at Oxbridge from her school in at least 10 years.

Engaging with the tutorial system prevents slacking to varying extents, OP. Keeping up with your work at uni is meant to take a certain amount of time. Excelling should mean working hard! (Within reason)

At my university we have a lot of evidence that many students engage only minimally with their course modules until near the end of term. They are still getting 2.1s, because we can’t afford to have statistics out of line with national norms. And this is a university with an excellent reputation.

Perhaps this is the source of the contrast you mention.

I can’t imagine the workload is much heavier than a lot of other places, it’s not like other universities hand out their degrees like smarties no matter how much the Oxbridge lot try to convince themselves any other degree from any other institution is a waste of time and means you won’t get a good job. Look at the idiots in political office who mainly seemed to go there, not exactly aspirational.

I hope you don't mean on the Oxbridge threads here @TooOldForThisNonsense. No one, but no one, suggests that degrees from other universities are a waste of time, in fact most are at pains to say that success is not down to any particular university and far more depends on the student and their drive/ambitions/opportunities/work ethic etc.

@poetryandwine I remember reading an article about Sheffield University (I think) a few years ago. The gist was that lots of students got 2:2s and complained; they were remarked and many upgraded. Students are paying for their degrees and can take their money to a university which has a higher % of 2:1 and 2:2s. So the unis have had to fall in line.

But about Oxbridge, IMO it is very Marmite. Apply to Oxbridge if the teaching method would suit. It isn't for everyone, but some really thrive. The tutorials are often 2 to 1 or even 1 to 1 so there is nowhere to hide. The workload is heavy, but not an issue for those who love their subject. You do need to be practical and self motivated and keep on top of things.

A lot of the vac is spent working and there really isn't time to get a job. DD has field trips at Easter and in September, and had a mapping project for 6 weeks this summer, so that interferes with summer jobs too.

The plus point is that the termly costs are cheaper as you only pay for 8 or 9 weeks. By the way, check colleges of cost is an issue as some are more expensive than others.

The system suits both of my DC. They have a social life, do sports and clubbing etc, but not 3 times a week like I did in Leeds. Both are STEM students and the workload is manageable, neither have drowned.

There may or may not be future advantages for having been to Oxbridge, but that wasn't a consideration here; the right course and easy access to tutors was more important.

I didn't get in to Oxbridge - got into a v high ranking London uni instead which was incidentally full of Oxbridge rejects. Worked out far better for me. Even though I was distraught at the time!!!

Some Oxbridge students find the tutorial system stressful, usually the ones uncomfortable exposing their weaknesses.

Have you been or are you a tutor at Oxbridge @poetryandwine ? I am and I find the above rather harsh, or at least off the mark.

I'd say most of my new students find the tutorial system stressful at first and then at various times throughout. That's not because I'm an ogre in a gown who is determined to make them look stupid or reveal their character flaws. It's because it is a very different system to what they're used to. Pretty obvious, since few students are taught 1:1 or 1:2 during their school years.

They're not used to the intensity of mostly listening, having to answer all questions, and not having a group discussion. This includes students who do know their stuff and have prepared very well, not just ones "uncomfortable exposing their weaknesses". I've never had many that fall into that category, the application system weeds many out I imagine. Students do squirm when they haven't adequately prepared, but I don't see that as being uncomfortable exposing their weaknesses, I see that as them being silly. They know themselves it's stupid to do that, they won't be getting the most out of me or the tutorial so it's pointless. But they're young, and there are so many temptations to do things other than study, so it will happen now and again.

Students do also love the tutorials, as well as finding them occasionally stressful. It's a huge part of why many want Oxbridge, it's our USP.

OP, I'd say it's impossible to know whether it's worth applying without visiting at least once, ideally both Oxford and Cambridge, and talking to students. Someone above made a very good point about cooking and cleaning and travel not being an issue for the whole 3 years, so the students have more time to focus on studying or sports or socialising than at other universities. It's a unique setup and it's not going to suit everyone.

am concerned about tales of students working all through Christmas holidays,

I've got one at an ex-poly (although high ranking for their subject) and one at a top 25, non RG uni.

Both have just worked on assignments throughout the Christmas holiday. One even had numerous teams meetings to organise a group presentation due first week if term.

I think it's common for students to have academic work to do during vacations.

Something else to consider @ThunderclapNewman is the amount of work and dedication it takes to even apply to Oxbridge at a time when students have to focus on their A Levels and general UCAS application. Specific tests to take. They've got to submit their UCAS early if applying to Oxbridge. If they get an interview, that's more preparation. It can't be half-arsed otherwise there's no point in applying. It's important that your DC is prepared and more importantly able to do that. It's a lot of added stress and some students decide that the stress would be counter-productive for them and they're better off focusing on their A levels. That's Ok, it's smart.