Is Oxbridge to be avoided?

[ThunderclapNewman]

Firstly, I should say it is obviously up to DC where they apply to and where they choose to go. And our job to support.
DC is considering Oxbridge. The course is not available at all uni's and the O&C variants would be a good, although not perfect, fit - but nowhere is. The small city, slightly sheltered vibe would also suit.
Having followed the O&C threads over many years, the feeling on here seems to increasingly be that Oxbridge is something to avoided, due to huge amounts of work compared to other places, the stress that comes with this and the expectations, the difficulty of obtaining a high degree classification (combined with higher levels of blind recruitment), the lack of time for socialising etc.
DH went to Oxbridge in the 90's and simply doesn't recognise the issues with workload (non-STEM). DC also interested in non-STEM). Have things changed so much since then?

As the parent of a DC who was interviewed by Oxford but found out he was unsuccessful last week, I would say it is not to be avoided if the course is right for your child and they want to go there.

Aside from the concerns you have raised, I think just be aware that the application is arduous, time consuming (takes away from A Level work time) and may not result in the wanted outcome.

For my son the process was important, for reasons I won't go into on this thread but are personal to him. Getting an interview was validating to him and the overall outcome was less important. He is now excited to be going to a top London university instead. But others get so consumed by the process, including (dare I say it parents), that rejection is tough even though it is statistically the most likely outcome from the outset!

So I'd say don't rule it out but just be aware of those things.

Yes, have read the threads about applying and it seems just another reason not to do it.

Should say I am not surprised that students need to work in the holiday, that is as it should be. It's the all day every day nature that I find concerning.

They have visited both. One many times for talks, taster days, activity days etc from KS3 age onwards (for various subjects).
It's not like being there though!

Only your DC can truly decide if the application process is a reason not to do it @ThunderclapNewman This is the point in time where they have to be self-motivated and self-aware, whether that includes applying for Oxbridge or not.

As @lifeturnsonadime there are some big positives to the application process even if it s a 'no'. I'd advise if going for it, commit to the process rather than the result, although that's very easy to say.

Oxford and Cambridge are brilliant and unique, there are no other places like it even though other universities are also great. I highly recommend it, but it won't suit everyone and students applying for university should take the time to work out what environment they want and need.

To be honest you don't seem too keen on the idea OP, get your DS to have a look at a range of universities and let him choose which align most to what he wants for his future.

Well obviously. And I did say that at the start of the thread.

@Tohoku We got a fair number of Oxbridge transfer students, relatively speaking, in my School when I was the admissions tutor responsible for transfer students. The Oxbridge students themselves mentioned the feeling of pressure in tutorial. I also have one young relative who had a similar experience at Oxford in a Humanities subject.

I would say the difficulty was simply feeling exposed, for the most part. I didn’t imply anyone was bullied although in my field one or two supervisors seem to be a bit blunt with underperformers (not weaker students).

I agree with you all of this is most likely because the system is new.

One of mine was on the Oxbridge path, from a low performing state school. She decided against it after an older friend dropped out of Oxford. Friend was from a family who couldnt support him financially, his subject was niche, small amount of students - all considerably wealthier, but it wasn't the mismatch of the students that was the issue, but the tutor's/college's expectations and comparison with the other students. They were "expected" to take up certain placements in the holidays. But friend needed to work, plus the placements incurred costs (accomodation etc) which he couldn't afford. He turned down the placements and was penalised for it by tutors. The stress made him ill and he ended up leaving.

Obviously, OP, I have been discussing a small minority of students who felt really uncomfortable at Oxbridge.

I agree with @Tohoku that the tutorial system takes getting used to. For those who can get comfortable with it, the learning opportunities are unparalleled.

A relative of mine is at Oxford doing a science and seems to find plenty of time to do two sport clubs and see his girlfriend at another university but he has always been pretty good at getting his work done. If it were me I’d not feel I had time to do anything because I am less good at just getting things done so I would probably have been one of the ones who sunk.

That said he has reservations about Oxford although I expect he made the right choice really as the grass is always greener.

For those who can get comfortable with it, the learning opportunities are unparalleled.

I completely agree with this @poetryandwine I am biased, but I also think it's an objective fact. Having 1:1 or 1:2 tutorials means that the student gets unparalleled solo attention. The large amount of time spent on going through their essay means a huge amount of analysis that can only help, if done properly of course. The student leaves the tutorial being absolutely clear on where they're on track, and how they can improve that essay or their general approach. Having to defend their choices increases their ability to be articulate and to know themselves why they made their choice.

I do eye-roll slightly at students transferring because they felt exposed. I mean, what did they expect? They knew how tutorials worked when they came. If it's just me and you sitting in a room talking about your work, of course you are going to be exposed. It's not even about the system being new to a student or taking time for them to adjust, it's them understanding the obvious fact that such a system will always be pressured, no matter how great you also find it, because it's either going to be me or you talking in that room and we both are going to be talking about your work.

In terms of the pressure of Oxbridge, for some students the accountability and regularity of the tutors actually reduces the pressure, because it provides a structure they find helpful. Having to be more self-motivated without regular deadlines and targeted accountability can be more stressful for some.

Some tutors can be suboptimal for a range of reasons. However overall Oxbridge tutorials are an amazing framework to uncover and troubleshoot weaknesses with course material. Plus of course students learn how to think and communicate effectively whilst being challenged. IMO all students would benefit from such a system but only Oxford and Cambridge deliver it. How they deliver it raises issues for junior academics but that is another topic.
Of course even very able students can flounder at times with the amount of course material and set tasks. As a counterpoint I would say that most who get in are of the type to prefer being busy and stretched. Working hard during the holiday is the compromise that allows students to have fun and avail themselves of the extracurricular opportunities during term time.

It’s a beautiful place and relatively low cost to live there compared to big city unis so those are big pluses

negatives - courses can be a bit old fashioned. I’m only speaking for the two subjects I know at undergrad - other uni courses seem more about todays world and the Oxford course my dd looked at seemed to be the same as it had been for years, reflecting the tutors specialisms. So look very carefully at that.

Some tutors can be suboptimal for a range of reasons.

It's a real shame when that happens. There has been the odd issue with that where I am over the years. Mostly however I believe the tutors are great. More common is that there can be clashes of teaching style or personality between tutor and tutee, but that doesn't mean the tutor is bad.

I agree I wish all university students were able to have tutorials where there is no more than 2 students. One aspect is that students have no choice but to focus intently, which is also a big help to them.

There is plenty of time to relax, socialise and do paid work on top of academic work in the Oxford and Cambridge holidays - particularly in the long summer break. No way should a student be doing academic work all day, every day of their holiday (although, again, I do not have experience of STEM subjects at Oxford)! The only holiday my ds has worked particularly hard in was after his first term, because at that stage he had no experience of college collections (written exams when you go back, just before the start of term, to check that you have taken in what you were supposed to from the term before). Once he had calibrated how much work was necessary, he adjusted accordingly. My experience was the same - plenty of time in holidays to have an academic break.

My academic director of studies used to say "vacations are called vacations for a reason: you vacate the city, the work doesn't change".

He was also author of the wonderful quote "if you're awake and not working for more than an hour a day, you're not working hard enough"

I certainly did have a bit of a break over the holidays, at least in comparison to term time (and did almost nothing over the summer which was the saving grace), but it wasn't minimal amounts of work by any means.

Did he define “work.” 🤣

There are a lot of issues at other top unis which I suspect aren't such a problem at O&C. Both O&C are very wealthy universities. If you are struggling to get a 2:1 at O or C at least it's because the work is difficult rather than a substandard course. 🫤

I went to Cambridge doing a humanities subject. I was absolutely astonished when I visited friends of the universities and how little they had to do in comparison to me and vice versa. It didn’t particularly bother me, apart from the final year, which I did find gruelling- there really was no time for much but work then, I had a boyfriend in London but popping up occasionally to see him really took away from my studies, ditto working ( for needed cash) in the Christmas holidays. I still got the 21 so no harm done, but I remember it feeling relentless.

Cambridge was not the right town for me, too small, I didn’t like going to live in a college and eat all my meals with a bunch of people who werent my chosen friends. I would’ve been hindsight, referred being someone like Manchester or London. Others loved it. Overall, I had an okay time, but the student experience I would have liked came when I arrived in London to do a postgrad.

But as all the others say OP, your children have to decide if they like the feel of the two places and they like the courses on offer and then are prepared to put in all the effort involved in applying in the knowledge that the chances of success are slim.

DD is there at present and finds it somewhat trying. She was never the 'Oxbridge hopeful ' type, but gave it a shot and much to her and everyone's surprise got an offer, so thought she'd have a go.

She does enjoy a good tutorial wrangle but would possibly have been happier somewhere more laid back -- and more modular. The thought that the whole degree essentially depends on being on good form for a few hours in your final year isn't relaxing.

I was going to say when I was interrupted - one dc at Cambridge now one elsewhere. Elsewhere definitely has more fun and finds workload very manageable. Both are happy though

I was there in the late 90s and it was definitely a huge amount of work in my humanities subject, I suspect your DH has forgotten how hard he worked.

If I’d organised my time well it would have been a lot more manageable but I was 18 and I did not. The constant pressure felt very intense. Three of my housemates were self-harming, another friend attempted suicide, and ‘support’ was laughable. Everyone drank heavily.

The short terms are stupid and only exist so they can make money out of renting out the rooms to corporations outside term.

I don’t recommend Oxbridge to anyone but if DC wanted it I wouldn’t discourage them too much. I feel weird about the whole time there. Great tuition, great extra-curricular opportunities, and it certainly opens career doors. (Blind recruitment has actually massively increased the number of Oxbridge and private school graduates getting jobs at my company, as they’re simply testing and interviewing way better than their less-educated competitors.)

But it isn’t fun. Other universities look fun. Oxbridge is interesting and challenging and stressful and rewarding but not as fun as most universities. I’d like my DC to have more fun than I did 🤷‍♀️

One of my friends did not particularly enjoy her Oxford degree and definitely thought she would have had more fun elsewhere. In retrospect, she also thinks she worked harder at Oxford than she needed to and could have had more fun there than she actually did, but just didn’t realise that until she got a 1st. She worked hard because she thought she was doing badly, not because she was enjoying putting the work in. So, I think to a certain extent it depends how you perceive yourself and why you think you are there - just to get a good degree, or to get as much as possible out of the entire university experience. It’s not as if it can possibly be true that everyone is working every hour that God sends at Oxford and Cambridge, given the number of societies and extra curricular activities on offer. I honestly think some people work far harder than actually necessary for the overall result they get.

I do think you need to be very aware of the rather brutal reality of Finals at Oxford, though - a lot of exams in a short space of time and, for my degree when I took it, the only thing that counted towards the final degree classification was the eight 3-hour exams at the end of the third year. None of the essays for tutorials or collections counted, no dissertation, just the exams. That was pretty brutal, although it made for a lovely 2nd year!