Is Oxbridge to be avoided?

[ThunderclapNewman]

Firstly, I should say it is obviously up to DC where they apply to and where they choose to go. And our job to support.
DC is considering Oxbridge. The course is not available at all uni's and the O&C variants would be a good, although not perfect, fit - but nowhere is. The small city, slightly sheltered vibe would also suit.
Having followed the O&C threads over many years, the feeling on here seems to increasingly be that Oxbridge is something to avoided, due to huge amounts of work compared to other places, the stress that comes with this and the expectations, the difficulty of obtaining a high degree classification (combined with higher levels of blind recruitment), the lack of time for socialising etc.
DH went to Oxbridge in the 90's and simply doesn't recognise the issues with workload (non-STEM). DC also interested in non-STEM). Have things changed so much since then?

I think that's out of date. Most Oxford degrees are assessed by exam and dissertation and an increasing number include coursework. Obviously depends on the degree.

Why would you want to actively avoid one of the best universities in the world?

If your DC isn't keen/it doesn't offer the subject they want etc then fair enough but otherwise why would you rule out a brilliant opportunity on the basis of hearsay?

I did a humanities subject, didn't go to many lectures (too many late nights partying - whoever said Oxford isn't fun is wrong ) didn't do much academic work in the holidays (had an almost full time paid job as v little parental support) and I came out with a 2:1. If I'd worked harder I could have got a 1st - but I had a brilliant time, made life long friends and wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere else. An Oxbridge degree still opens many recruitment doors and I think a 2.1 from Oxford is generally seen as better than a 1st from a lower ranking university.

Of course it can be stressful (finals definitely were) and the structure isn't for everyone - it's certainly much easier to be spoon fed what you need to know to pass a modular exam system (as one of my post grad courses was) - but the Oxford system encourages you to think, to challenge, to be curious, to go beyond the basics and has an academic rigour that is lacking in many other spheres. The difference between A Levels and Oxford was a challenge when I went (and I realised I really wasn't as clever as I thought I was ) so I'm sure that is even more of a shock now but that can be a good thing.

Your DH has been there - listen to him, and if your DC wants to apply then good luck to them!

It is fine for the right sort of person. DS went and he worked far harder than I did when I was there. But he also partied hard, joined and ran societies, got a half blue in his sport, fell in love, sang in choirs, did some rowing.He loved his time there. I think if you have a strong self-motivated work ethic and are well organised, it is fine.

But it wouldn't have suited DS2 who needed more time to find his feet and more time to relax between assignments. He went to an RG uni and thrived there. He felt it was the right place for him.

Yes, I agree it is out of date - my ds definitely has a dissertation and extended essays as part of his degree, and looking at the Jurisprudence degree offered now, although still extremely 3rd year exam heavy and no second year exams, there does seem to be an extended essay in jurisprudence and the option of a dissertation instead of another exam.

It's impossible to say that one would have had a more fun or better all round experience at another university because they can only experience one university. People often say going to X university was 'the making of him/her', but so may it have been going to university Y, or indeed Oxford or Cambridge.
I did not go to uni in this country, and went way back in the 80s. It was not that enjoyable but it was a means to an end and I didn't expect it to be the 'time of my life' experience society keeps saying it is - this is often untrue no matter what university attended, and that is a problem for many.
When we visited Cambridge I specifically asked the lovely young woman who showed us around one college about the workload. She was an MFL student and said it was fine, that there were definitely other courses more intense (including the one my DD was applying for). We went on to meet a law student and I believe a Maths student, all delightful, engaging people enjoying showing off their colleges (I realise this is a self selected group).
The students I know at some other universities seem to universally complain about two things: lack of contact hours and non responsiveness of their tutors. They don't know how they are doing and can seem a bit lost. The self directed part of university seems to be something hard to grasp after years of daily 9-3.30 classes.
But getting into Oxbridge and other top universities requires, in the vast majority, a strong work ethic, determination and focus. My DD didn't get her three A stars by osmosis - she earned them through hours and hours of study. If she should get an offer from Cambridge, she's expecting to spend most days holed up in the beautiful library of her college working, and lively discussions during supervisions - her dream scenarios!
Oxbridge is not the be all and end all, and one can never be confident they will get an offer, no matter what their academic record so far. But if keen, why not? As I said previously it is just one of five choices, and one definite way of not getting an offer is to not apply in the first place.

DD graduated in PPE this summer. Her degree result was entirely based on 8 exams sat across 15 days without any course work etc. Her last 3 papers were spread across a day & a half which was brutal, especially as they were each for a different discipline.

Other unis can be demanding workload and exam-wise too. As an example Warwick maths finals were 10 in-person exams each 3 hrs long. But that 'only' counted for 60% of the final grade. Students had to do the same in Year 1 (c. 10% of degree) and Year 2 (maybe 25% of degree). There was a dissertation in there too (maybe 5%?). So appreciate that its not all decided over a couple of weeks but a long-term concerted effort as all the exams count. In addition, Yr 1 and Yr 2 marks go on transcripts to be considered by other unis for MSc applications (so they need to be very high if that's your aim).

One of my DC did maths at a top but not O or C uni where the final year exams counted for most but not all of the degree marks. (I can't remember the weighting though). There were a good number of her fellow students who had to work non-stop in the last year to make up for less than stellar 2nd year exams.

As for exams all being on top of each other I think that's normal. At least it is for the STEM subjects my kids did. One DC at another top but not O or C kept getting two exams on the same day but in different destinations that were the other side of the city. It was a lot of added stress.

Another thing one of their unis messed up was that all the kids who had extra time did a fair few of their exams a week or so AFTER the other students and it was the exact same exam. There was a lot of cheating which wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact that some of the exams had a pass mark that was part based on an average of all the years marks. So other people cheating made it harder for those that didn't.

I doubt O or C would be able to get away with shite like that.

The business with the exams for extra time students is appalling, @LordyMe If all the late exams were unchanged there was great potential for affecting degree classifications.
I suspect that if the other students had banded together to complain they would have got somewhere

I was a clever but emotionally immature young person when I went in the 90s. The college system, three years accommodation, meals in hall and college community with fellows to look up to and porters to be on good behaviour for, really suited me, it was very emotionally containing and allowed me to focus on work and my friends/activities.

I think if I'd been renting privately in a big city party university I'd have gone off the rails a bit to try to cope with feeling very lost.

I didn't find the workload dreadful at all. Far easier than four A levels and school all day. Mind you I did history - one essay a week, one supervision a week, two or three lectures and around. 10 books to digest.

I should say that I think it's an incredible gift and opportunity to go there - as long as you are not the kind of young person who sets the whole store of their self worth by being "the best". Because at oxbridge you're just going to be very ordinary and people like you are ten a penny. Not a bad thing for an iver precocious youngster like I was!

If my DC want to try I will certainly encourage.

*over not iver ...

@poetryandwine

The business with the exams for extra time students is appalling, @LordyMe If all the late exams were unchanged there was great potential for affecting degree classifications
I suspect that if the other students had banded together to complain they would have got somewhere

It did seem a ridiculous thing to do. My DC loved maths but had to work hard at it all the time so it was especially gauling that it happened. A few did complain but were given sympathetic but wishy washy replies.

@mondaytosunday It's impossible to say that one would have had a more fun or better all round experience at another university because they can only experience one university

Not true at all. I did 3 years UG at Durham immediately followed by 18 months PG at Nottingham.

Preferred Nottingham in terms of social life

@lastdayatschool well maybe not impossible but UG and PG are different. You are older, more mature and have (most likely) now got used to living away from home. Your experience even at the very same university would be different.

In terms of the pressure of Oxbridge, for some students the accountability and regularity of the tutors actually reduces the pressure, because it provides a structure they find helpful. Having to be more self-motivated without regular deadlines and targeted accountability can be more stressful for some.

Yes, that's an interesting point.

No danger of being somewhat shocked to find others are more intelligent. Feeling imposter syndrome 100x over is much more likely.

It’s interesting to see that the Oxford Jurisprudence (ie Law) degree information suggests a weekly work requirement of around 45 hours during term time. Jurisprudence is considered one of the heavier workload subjects. Historians always seemed particularly happy with their workload, which was generally considered one of the lightest! The scientists and engineers definitely worked hard (or got rusticated…). Having to turn up to do lab work on top of tutorials and lectures will obviously create less flexibility in terms of choosing when, where and how to get your work done and when to take time off for other things.

I don't think the fact that 'other' stresses can be minimised if you go to Oxford or Cambridge should be overlooked. Accommodation and meals being provided etc is actually a big deal. (Yes I know it's not all colleges and years)

One of my DC used to have to get to the library to study at her top Uni at 7 in the morning if she wanted somewhere to sit. She would send me photos as proof. :-). I don't know but I doubt that happens at O&C
When my son did his masters at different 'top' uni he had regular meetings with his Supervisor and thoroughly enjoyed the whole experience. So much so he went on to do a PhD at the same university. Over that time the uni massively increased the number of students on the UG and Masters course but decreased teaching staff to the point where it's got to the point that the Masters students are barely supported in doing their thesis (don't know how to pluralize that 🫣). In fact most were marked without ever being fully read.

There are a million different examples many of them relating to the fact that a lot of Unis are skint unlike O&C

If I think of the things that caused my kids 'stress' over their degrees and I don't think it was ever the workload even though they did work heavy courses (medicine, maths etc). They would get stressed over exams but that's going to be the same for everyone.

I know that O&C have problems too, such as the poor sods who have to try and find private accommodation in the second year at Oxford but I'd wonder that O or C might actually suit some stressy kids more than other Unis.

(Sorry for rambling and badly written post but I'm on my phone)

My DC thrived at O and C. College life, tutorials, living in beautiful buildings and opportunities for high level sports suited them both very well.
They made lovely friends, got Firsts and are enjoying their respective grad jobs so Oxbridge was the right choice for them.

Well it's not really about "Is Oxbridge to be avoided" Is it OP, You write as if everyone has a choice about this! The vast majority don't get in. It's not really about people choosing to 'avoid' Oxbridge, more like Oxbridge choosing to avoid them.

Should we try to find reasons to avoid other top unis as well? I don't see the point of this thread really.

I didn’t apply to Oxbridge and have regretted it as an adult. I may well not have got in, of course, but I wish I’d given it a shot. When I did my MA (languages), I met Oxbridge graduates who had been exposed to so much more than I had. Where I’d had a taster of an author, for example, they’d have read all the key works. They picked up on allusions in things we were translating that flew over our heads because their knowledge was deep as well as broad. As someone who was academic and loved their subject, the penny dropped at that point as to what I’d missed out on, despite having gone to a good RG university.

I wouldn’t look at it as hard work, but an opportunity to be steeped in the subject. Didn’t stop the Oxbridge grads I’ve known having a decent social life either.

If keen for beautiful buildings and perhaps more of a life balance, St Andrews is a good option. It ranks above oxbridge in the various newspaper league tables. It’s hard to get into though and some might think it remote. But it does have a beach!

I suspect this conversation could have been held any time after 1950, tbh.