UCL or Durham for Stem degree

[Uniquestions]

My DS is in year 13. Thinks his application to Oxford is written off so is down to looking at UCL or Durham (assuming he gets offers ) for chemistry

we live about 2 hours from UCL by train or 6+ hours drive to Durham.

he’s going back and fore about which to put as his firm choice. Obviously accommodation costs in London are going to be higher but I can see a trip a term up to drop him off /visit in Durham is going to be several hundred pounds by the time you factor in petrol/hotel/food etc.

for me I think accommodation should really be taken into consideration. Even if he gets halls the first year, that still leaves subsequent years to worry about.

He thinks UCL is a better reputation internationally but Durham is more of a university feel and he would get a more enjoyable university ‘experience’

i wondered if anyone’s child has had to make a similar choice and what swayed them.

Thanks!

Er probably because I went to two of them (undergrad and postgrad) and work in one part time now. I think postgrad in London is a nice experience, undergrad more difficult. The volume of intl students is much higher than it was. Because so many they tend to stay in familiar groups, live separately and don’t integrate. I’m not saying he won’t make lifelong friends but it is harder than in a university where home students are a higher %.

OP,

Few go directly from a three year STEM degree to a STEM PhD these days. With a First in MChem from Durham or a good BSc and a Distinction at MSc, your DS should be able to do a funded PhD in the UK. If he wishes to do a (funded) PhD at a top university in North America, an MChem from UCL might be a better bet. But some North American universities would take him from Durham

Fair enough. Sometimes the response is something on the lines of "I read it on MN".

My observation is that International students have changed over the years. More are from bi-cultural backgrounds, or have been to international schools, or have grown up away from their home country. The internet has led to all our DC have access to wider culture. DS liked anime/manga and the relevant University society was very international, as was the computer gaming society. DD met a lot of, particularly Eastern European, friends via sport though her closest friend was from Korea, albeit via British boarding schools. I am not sure that the LSE is much more international. As I said I was the only Brit on my course even back then, which initially was tough as some were from pretty patriarchal cultures. (Plenty of pre-revolution Persians with lots of money.)

As I said up thread, many students don't mix outside their comfort zones but others do, whether from overseas or from the UK. My DC had the advantage of growing up in London so studying in a multi cultural environment was not a particularly big step. It will be for others. DD found Imperial easier than Bristol where first social life to a surprisingly large extent revolved round clubbing. Both are good choices, and with a bit of effort you will be able to find "your people" at both. It is about what suits the DS best.

@poetryandwine re Few go directly from a three year STEM degree to a STEM PhD these days

Curious - what do most do in the intervening period ?

I went to Durham (STEM degree but not Chemistry) but I’m old so I imagine lots has changed since I was there. The weather wasn’t that bad though @Uniquestions (since your ds was bothered by the rain!). It was cold in winter, yes, but not often that wet! (Presumably because it’s on the east of the country).

I had a wonderful time there - there was plenty to do socially and we used to pop up to Newcastle for shopping/concerts. Very different to London though I imagine. IMO a lot of how you do at university as an undergraduate is down to the course (it’s hard to cope with the workload if you’re not really finding it that interesting) and partly luck in finding your tribe/ making friends.

Durham has the collegiate system which is a bit different to most unis. We had college tutors who were responsible for pastoral support (there was no teaching in college though, unlike Oxbridge). College was quite small so we saw our tutors in passing all the time. We were somewhat mollycoddled in college. All colleges were catered back then so we were fed, our rooms were cleaned once a week and they laundered our bedding if we wanted it done (I expect that has changed). All that freed up our time for work and play!

If he wants to do a PhD he can always swap uni at that stage (I did, although 2 of my Chemist friends did stay on at Durham to do theirs).

Durham is a bit of a hike if you live in the south though. I only made it home for the weekend once in my 3 years there (but I didn’t want to go home at the weekends anyway, because I was having too much fun!)

LOTS! from three different firms I worked at at least (all of them whose name you'll recognise). Also the league tables:
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/graduate-employability-top-universities-uk-ranked-employers

UCL is 8th in the UK, Durham is 13th. You think that may not make a difference but it genuinely does. It's about access to opportunities and London/Oxbridge students are in much closer proximity to those opportunities, networking events etc. None of the firms I worked at held recruitment events at Durham, but multiple at Oxbridge, LSE, Imperial, UCL. Proximity matters.

To be clear, a 50% international intake wouldn’t be an issue. I am aware that they are more likely to be affluent - paying £40k fees before anything else. But I do think the social aspect of university is important too, and my sons not going to be able to have that much spare cash, so it would be good that he could mix with fellow students with similar income constraints

Some will be affluent, others won't. Their parents and extended families will have found the money for them to receive a top class international education, and the student will repay by being frugal and working hard. DS benefitted as his international friends would cook together and invite him. If they went out to eat it was normally China Town in a large group and the cheapest restaurant. He ended up sharing an ex-Council flat close to the LSE, where they saved money by using the living room as a bedroom. Quite a big contract to Bristol where some of the British students seemed to have a lot of money to spend on coffees out, clubbing, taxis etc.

@preppingforlife - thanks for that data.

So effectively, you're asserting that UGs are more employable the closer their university is to London, and the large volume of graduate employers who are domiciled there.

I think London students now use Uber. Bristol students use taxis late at night to get back to the Stoke Bishop halls to stay safe. Walking back alone is not a great idea and the uni says so. Lots of dc who are not from a city are fairly new to clubbing and like to give it a go. For a year max for most! Very much depends on what time lectures are the next day. London students do very similar things on their spare time with an array of cocktail bars and restaurant where there are few cheap options.

In reality most unis have a variety of students. International dc with homes here tend to mix more but have often been to school here too.

Not everyone works in London. DD as a London lawyer finds many colleagues were educated at Durham. Chemists could literally be anywhere! Most employers look at more than uni and Durham is hardly a back number anyway. It is very different from London so deciding if London is what you want is what matters. It does have students who are able to afford and enjoy coffee shops too! How decadent!

I find it really interesting (and cool) that you and your son both went to LSE.

I have a friend who went to Imperial, and both his parents went to Imperial as well.

Quite cool, and same subject, though he did much better than me. It made it easier as my expectations of a University experience were based on London (my brother was at UCL) and I could see that it would suit DS. DH went to Oxford so London offered a very different experience, and he had more reservations - perhaps similar to those expressed by others on the thread.

London has layers. Being a student in London is different to working here. When at Imperial DD discovered her sports team went to a pub just down the road from where she had been at school. Same place, different experience. I think, for the right person, London is a great place to study.

What's Ur son up to now? I've seen previous thread of yours saying he did a PhD in economics I believe?

At the risk of diverting the thread a bit, though OP did say her DS might want to go onto a PhD and someone else asked about what students did between UG and PhD. Most take a Masters which is what DS did. Advice he then had was to broaden his experience by applying to the US for the PhD. Unlike the UK US economic PhDs often take six years. Two for a further taught Masters, three years for the PhD and a further year of “job market”, which is where he is now. Both his University and his supervisor like to see their students place well, so he has had a lot of support, but it is still fiercely competitive. A sort of UCAS on steroids. He applied via a common application to over 200 institutions from Alaska to Auckland. (Or similar.) He has had a reasonable number of Zoom interviews and today is his first “fly-out” second interview. With luck he will be cross-crossing the globe in his interview suit.

Like those sweating on UCAS through March and beyond, or indeed those looking for training positions with law firms or graduate entry into banks or the Civil Service, you only need one. There will be real relief if and when he has an offer. We can then start planning our summer holiday based on where he ends up.

So back to the OP. If her DS is interested in some form of academic/research career it is probably worth aiming for the top ranked relevant institution you can get at each stage. Name recognition, networks, exposure to cutting edge research. DD certainly loved the fact that the people teaching her at Imperial were very much at the forefront of what was happening in her area. There are differences between science and social science because of the formers reliance on targeted research money. However it is still likely to be very very competitive.

@lastdayatschool , the norm in STEM nowadays is either to do a four year undergraduate degree with an integrated Master’s - eg, an MChem, or to do a BSc followed by an independent MSc. Either is good preparation for the PhD. A funded STEM PhD in the UK is typically just 4.5 years. This already puts our students at a disadvantage internationally, so it is good for them to get the fourth year of learning accomplished before they begin.

It used to be that Y13 of school was like Y1 of university in North America and some other countries but that really isn’t true any more, at least compared to the top universities (and elite four year colleges in America). We need to start funding PhDs for five or six years but as compared to so many other shortfalls it is hardly a priority.

Then again, as Britain becomes less attractive to overseas academics following Brexit perhaps those who have earned PhDs in Britain will start to fill a greater proportion of staff positions in our universities, labs and industries. Silver linings. 🙃

@poetryandwine thank you for the detailed response. It's some change from when I graduated (93, Durham, BSc Chemistry) and a lot of my class went directly into a 3 year PhD

You are very kind, @lastdayatschool . I loathe the way we are falling behind on PG education and I am afraid I got on my high horse.

Your time was when the UK could be proud of its educational standards - so I understand; I am foreign and wasn’t here.

Provided it's one of Imperial/LSE/UCL. The others don't do nearly as well as Durham