UCL or Durham for Stem degree

[Uniquestions]

My DS is in year 13. Thinks his application to Oxford is written off so is down to looking at UCL or Durham (assuming he gets offers ) for chemistry

we live about 2 hours from UCL by train or 6+ hours drive to Durham.

he’s going back and fore about which to put as his firm choice. Obviously accommodation costs in London are going to be higher but I can see a trip a term up to drop him off /visit in Durham is going to be several hundred pounds by the time you factor in petrol/hotel/food etc.

for me I think accommodation should really be taken into consideration. Even if he gets halls the first year, that still leaves subsequent years to worry about.

He thinks UCL is a better reputation internationally but Durham is more of a university feel and he would get a more enjoyable university ‘experience’

i wondered if anyone’s child has had to make a similar choice and what swayed them.

Thanks!

Where does 95% come from?

London and Durham are very different places to live and study. I went to Durham and I loved being in a smaller city and the historic environment. Some young people might find it boring there though, especially if they are looking for nightlife. If you're going to live somewhere for three years then the type of city is just as important as the finer details of the course.

@Penguinsandpuffins

TSR UniGuide, as I said.

(NB not chemistry)

Ah, that makes sense - I presumed it was chemistry, as that was the subject OP mentioned 😀

I have read on here and on other forums that a lot of overseas students don't really mix with UK students. One of DD's friends is at UCL and says all the Chinese students in her flat don't talk to anyone other than each other even though the UK students have tried to befriend them.

It is understandable when studying abroad that young people like to stick with the familiar, but maybe the cultural differences here are a bit of a shock for the overseas students.

@RampantIvy Internationsl students vary. Some cannot wait to integrate. Others see being here as all about education and not much else. So it just depends on their background and personalities. Plus they are paying a fortunate and parents have high expectations.

Durham is very different to London. Loads of SE based students go to Durham or Newcastle! Even Edinburgh. I would not worry about distance if the course is right and DS is happy with a much smaller city. London is obviously a very different experience and I do think you have to accept certain things. Lots of students will live at home. Rich overseas students will live at their home in London. Doing lots of things in London cost money but being savvy with student offers makes money go much further in a world class city. Everything you can possibly want is there. Students get more spread out after y1 and lots will work.

So I would evaluate what DS really wants most. What makes him tick and where would he thrive? Does he want what’s in London. Does he want a college based experience in Durham? Does he care about mascots?(!)

Not fortunate! Fortune!

I have Y13 twins - one applying for chemistry and the other physics. They have almost identical profiles and results. One already has an offer from Durham and the other UCL plus offers from other universities. Honestly, I think it comes down to the student and what they think suits them best. Encourage your DS to take the lead here - good luck with wherever he decides!

I've posted similar on another thread recently. DD is at Lse and absolutely loves the international feel of it. Yes, this includes students from China 😀.
Yes accommodation is expensive but I suspect the advantage in London that you don't have to find anything during your first term year 1 for year 2 and 3.
No experience but from Mumsnet it seems at other unis you have to get everything sorted by Xmas?

I think she would have gotten bored in a small town (despite or maybe because we live in a rural area).

@Uniquestions my ds had similar choices to yours (except Warwick instead of Bath) and went for UCL as first choice and Nottingham as second. He loved the Nottingham campus and sport, but the department wasn't a patch on UCL. He ditched Durham because of the distance, and our open day visit (complete with masks, social distancing etc) didn't excite him. He is now in year 2 and, with hindsight, made exactly the right choice for him because:

• His offers for Durham and Warwick were both AStar, AStar, A, A whereas UCL only needed one AStar. Although his predicted grades were for four AStars, in the end he only got one, so he dodged a bullet there.
• Durham has a student accommodation crisis, widely reported in the news (google it). As my DS is very laid back, he definitely wouldn't have been first in the queue for a good option. At UCL he was in halls for the first year, and he and his friends didn't even start house-hunting for year 2 until after their summer exams. It was all a bit fraught, but they got something decent in the end.

One thing worth bearing in mind about UCL is that it is 50% international. Many of the international students are very wealthy, which pushes up the prices of the private halls to eye watering levels. Also, a significant proportion of the remaining students have home addresses within commuting distance of London (as we do) so have a fall-back plan if they don't manage to get an affordable flatshare.

For context, my son's year 2 flatshare in NW1 is £900pcm, which is considered relatively cheap. Most of his friends have bar jobs to help make ends meet. But he loves living and studying in central London.

UCL >> Durham for graduate recruitment if that matters.

Can't comment on which is better to live as a student. I went to Cambridge which is small and I loved that, but my friends at UCL and Imperial loved London so it's a super personal decision.

Have you looked at Surrey?

Surrey isn't even in the same league as Durham or UCL

@preppingforlife do you have any data/evidence to support your assertion that UCL is better than Durham for graduate recruitment ?

I had to choose between Durham and a SW Russell Group university. I went for the SW university which was much nearer my family and where some of my friends were going. Also my DM warned me it would be freezing up North(I later went to work in Russia so besides the point).
However London tends to either help Ss thrive or they have a breakdown and quit the course . It’s a bit like marmite and depends on finances too(London not a good place to be a poor student).

They’re chalk and cheese. Visit both and he can decide.
They get a higher loan for London but it’s more expensive regardless.
The top London universities are very international, mostly Chinese and integration is poor. Durham is tiny and traditional. Personally I think you get a better (bonding, lifelong friends) university experience in a university town rather than big city but depends what the YP wants. Some would find Durham too confining.

I must admit I was really pleased when a previous poster said the UCL course was 95% overseas as that would have been a good deciding factor. But then I saw it wasn’t for chemistry! So we are back to square one.

I think I am listing all these things as much for myself as anyone else. Absolutely know it is my sons decision.

we’ve visited Durham - although it was a flying visit so we did the chemistry talk and saw a couple of the halls up on the hill. It was pouring with rain and so we didn’t see the town.

he liked the halls.
he liked the course
he has friends likely to go there

he disliked how far away from us it was
he thinks UCL would be better regarded if he wanted to do PHD
he didn’t like the rain!

he added UCL late and missed the subject specific open days but managed to go with a friend to a general campus tour. So didn’t see labs or halls.

he thinks UCL has a better reputation especially if he wants to do a phd but I am aware research intensive unis don’t always have the best teaching for undergraduates.

we can afford (just) to put £12k towards accommodation for London. And they would have to use minimum loan for everything else.

he’s not a great party animal but is happy to go out clubbing or staying in and cooking with friends but I worry that he might not be very assertive in sorting out a house with other people

I think he might be happier at Durham but would have secret regrets about not challenging himself by going to UCL

and I think if he goes to UCL he might find it more stressful which might impact on his studies

IheartNiles, useful to know the basis for your statement that integration is poor at top London Universities.

It seems to be a MN myth that perpetuates.

Some students mix with those from different backgrounds, some don't. Whether this is coming from a different country, the north of England or even a state/private school. For those that are happy to find common interest with others, either though course or societies, London Universities can be very rewarding. I was the only English person on my LSE degree many many moons ago and I still made plenty of friends, bumping into some later in my career in unlikely places. DC, who went to LSE and Imperial, also had the advantage of making friends from a variety of background, useful already to DS who is now in the US and access to a ready made LSE alumni network.

@Uniquestions he thinks UCL would be better regarded if he wanted to do PHD

Does he have any evidence/rationale for this ?

Durham's School of Chemistry is highly regarded and, if he gets a first (which IMO should be mandatory entry criteria for a PhD), I don't see how this would disadvantage him in comparison to attending UCL.

Uniquestions, posted at the same time as you. If he is very interested in his course and thinking of a PhD, UCL might well be a better fit. (Though obviously it is personal.) DS had no problems making friends as their common ground was the course. After LSE he was able to get on a fully funded PhD programme at a top 10 department in the US. The fact his referee appeared to be on first name terms with several in the department he was applying to did him no harm.

A STEM PhD implies that he is thinking of a reasonably international career, ie even if he remains UK based he will have many international colleagues. I would suggest that UCL would be more challenging but more rewarding. Too big a step too early. For him to decide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_triangle_(universities)

DH is a PhD chemist and talks about how well regarded Durham is in the industry.

Personally I would go to where he will have a happier experience in the end. I wouldn’t expect to pick a child up every term, Durham on the east coast mainline, even if you chose to pick him up closer to home there’s no reason to drive all that way.

I would say if he is interested in staying in chemistry he will probably looking towards doing a Masters/PhD anyway. It may end up being a longer term decision if he continues where he does his degree.

@lastdayatschool that’s a good question so I just looked up worldwide uni rankings for chemistry and
3rd Cambridge
5th oxford
9th Imperial
19th UCL

142 Durham

i am sure a different set of rankings would come out with something different though

He should have a close look at the course and options. They will vary in emphasis. What interests him most? A larger department is likely to be able to offer a wider range of options.

Thanks @Uniquestions - that's quite a gap in those rankings.

Having just done 5-10 minutes of quick googling, from a Research/Post-Graduate perspective it does seem Durham have dropped rankings for Chemistry in the last 10 years:

In 2014, they were number one ranked in the Research Excellence Framework (REF 2014), but in 2021 (most recent) they dropped to position 21, so quite a fall.

However, conversely from a Undergraduate perspective, their School of Chemistry is ranked 5 in the Complete University Guide (https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings/chemistry) - UCL are 17th (albeit with a higher research score).

As per a lot of previous posters, I really think where he studies at UG level (based on the universities he's considering) won't inhibit his ability to progress at post-graduate level and that he should go where he thinks he'll get the best university experience - both academically and extra-curricularly (sic).