UCL or Durham for Stem degree

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My DS is in year 13. Thinks his application to Oxford is written off so is down to looking at UCL or Durham (assuming he gets offers ) for chemistry

we live about 2 hours from UCL by train or 6+ hours drive to Durham.

he’s going back and fore about which to put as his firm choice. Obviously accommodation costs in London are going to be higher but I can see a trip a term up to drop him off /visit in Durham is going to be several hundred pounds by the time you factor in petrol/hotel/food etc.

for me I think accommodation should really be taken into consideration. Even if he gets halls the first year, that still leaves subsequent years to worry about.

He thinks UCL is a better reputation internationally but Durham is more of a university feel and he would get a more enjoyable university ‘experience’

i wondered if anyone’s child has had to make a similar choice and what swayed them.

Thanks!

OP,

Has DS visited both places? If he is lucky, one will feel right and the other won’t. Or did he visit both and find it did not help with the decision?

I understand about Bath being too local but that is a shame, as IMO it is a wonderful university for STEM. And you are correct that IME on the whole applicants aren’t very good about estimating their Oxbridge outcomes.

I’d concentrate on the environment. Does he want to live in a capital city or have a more campus experience somewhere smaller? My friend’s son had the same dilemma and went to Durham but was miserable. He’d grown up in London (state comp) and Durham was just too small and “posh” for him. He did stick it out but it was tough going.

DS currently at Durham studying biology would agree with this. He chose not to put any London options down because 'it's crammed'. He is having a great time studying, socialising and playing sport with a lovely group of friends. I don't think anyone would label them as posh. The college system does make meeting people with similar interests/humour etc much easier. Interestingly his friends who have gone to London universities (STEM & medicine) have tended to stick together.

Coming from an engineering family, the general feeling is that certainly as ar as engineering and jobs go, the University is of very little importance.
Also people who apply for specific jobs seem to progress quicker than those on graduate training programmes.

I agree @ilovebreadsauce.

Take the distance factor out of it.
They are such different places I'm surprised one type isn't favoured over the other.
If my DD doesn't get an offer from C, her choices are Durham (has an offer) or Bath (still waiting but has grades achieved well above requirements so fairly confident). Like you, it's the distance that puts me off Durham, but the collegiate system probably more attractive for her and she definitely likes the olde worlde vibe of some of the colleges and city. She loves Bath city but the modernity of the university is off putting (to her), though she likes the idea of a campus (one of the reasons she was turned off Bristol).
We live in London (the wrong side for Durham, better for Bath) and she wouldn't consider it.

DD had an offer at Durham and went to her London first choice uni and very grateful that she did . London uni life offers a huge range of experiences but more importantly work experience, apprenticeships and internships - also the rich range of speakers she has been able to see has been amazing as many see London as convenient. Because of the " Uni of London" family students are also able to switch between studying in a range of beautiful, historical libraries ( I'm a bit jealous) . Would definitely second a peep at Imperial if you have a super STEMer ..

Like vast majority of people want to work in London. The top paying grad jobs are in London..very easy to go to an interview/career event if u study in London.

Just take the tube.

We’ve been asking ourselves exactly the same question (DC most likely rejected from Oxford next week).
STEM subject too
After much hesitation and due diligence (speaking to current Durham and UCL students for similar subjects) they decided to put UCL over Durham on their UCAS form. In particular we were reassured on the social life aspect of UCL which appears much richer than we thought (and even better than other London unis according to students). Distance was also a key deciding factor.

Imperial a must for STEM if you’re not against London in principle (my DC has an interview coming up soon).

No, the vast majority of people do not want to work in London.

It depends on the role/career

What a London centric post

I don't think that applies in the sciences. A lot of the most interesting career paths in chemistry require a PhD or at least a masters. While it's possible to change unis between undergrad and postgrad, it's often more straightforward not to. And it's impossible to do blind recruitment at this level as it's not just the uni, it's the specific supervisor/research group that matters.

No, the vast majority of people do not want to work in London.

Especially not scientists.
Unis, research parks, chemical plants...

I always love the whole everyone wants to work in London attitude. No we don't. In fact millions of people live and work elsewhere, it is almost like there are other countries in the UK outside of the London bubble. Ds is at Durham but at no time did he consider his future graduate job being in Durham or near Durham. He considered his home city with huge job potential and of course housing he could afford, by himself, a house, not a flat.

Durham student housing isn't all 6 bedroom house shares. Some of Ds's mates ended up in house shares because someone asked them to house share rather than this proactive put yourself forward as the main driving force. It also depends where you want to live in terms of distance from the campus or where your teaching takes place, hill or bailey. The library is at the bottom of the hill.

Durham is small, you can get to places easily on foot. Each college has their own bar, traditions, mascot etc. When we went to move Ds in there was a party atmosphere, music blasting, a dancing mascot, cars beeping for their college on the South Road, Freps to help you carry everything up to your room. I can't comment on any other uni as this is the only recent experience of uni. The town itself is sweet and if you want city life then Newcastle is a short train ride away.

The student population means that there are always familiar faces when you are out and about, either your course or your college. The colleges play each other in sports, there is a friendly rivalry. Durham is highly regarded as a university. All this international reputation only matters if you want to work somewhere other than the UK. So where would he want to live/work in future?

I have tremendous respect for @ErrolTheDragon . However while it may not be as straightforward to change institutions between UG and PG study, it is quite feasible for excellent students to do so and I think that it is often a good idea.

You double your networks. If you don’t change now you will almost certainly be doing so later, and there is a great risk that you will have fallen into the trap of thinking that there is only one way to do things.

Arguably if you have a genuine, burning interest in a topic for which your UG institution is a true world leader, you might want to stay. But even then it is a good idea to ask yourself how that topic is sited within the discipline. If it is obscure and not likely to lead to good employment, could you possibly fall in love with something more mainstream upon exposure?

My thinking is conditioned by the fact that I have known a couple of ‘Pied Pipers’. These men (surprise) doing fringe research are both excellent, charismatic lecturers. The only graduate students they can recruit are UGs who adore them and stay on. These students have been uniformly disappointed by their job placements. Yet they never learn from the experience of others.

I feel confident that @ErrolTheDragon is ethical. But not everyone is.

Crumbs a lot more interesting views and I would say 50 50 split between Durham and London and everyone has given the pros and cons that we have debated.

to answer a couple of questions, my son was adamant he didn’t want to look at London. However for some reason he then did look at UCL and he said it was such a good course he had to put it down. I don’t know why he didn’t look at imperial but it’s too late now as he’s put in his 5 choices.

it would make life easier in so many ways if he got an offer for Oxford. Apparently the interviews went badly though - he was staying with his dad that week and he told me it was best not to ask!

They offer very different student experiences and it's not one size fits all.

Some students look forward to big city living and accessing everything that London has to offer. Other students want a smaller city experience and like the collegiate system that Durham offers.

If there's not much between the courses, I would focus on what sort of environment is likely to help your DC thrive.

OP,

I only asked about Imperial because we didn’t know whether DS had made five choices from what you had posted at that point. What’s done is done and he made good choices.

Has he visited both UCL and Durham? If not that is an important step. If so I would encourage him to pay careful attention to his reactions.

As PPs suggested, there's not much in it reputation-wise, so he should probably pick based on course and lifestyle.

DD would say neither - she dismissed Durham because of distance and lack of diversity, added UCL reluctantly because the course is great, but a bit wobbly about London, money and the high proportion of international students.

From what I've read LSE (no chemistry) & Imperial have the higher international student population. 70% and 60% respectively.

UCL it's 48% and seen as the more "social" London uni

@nxlee This particular course at UCL is 95% international, according to TSR's UniGuide, which claims to get its info from HESA.

What's the main gripe with international students anyway?

Nothing in particular, she just doesn't fancy that mix of 95% international, 5% UK. Partly because she would be skint studying in London and thinks that most international students would be pretty wealthy, so might have quite a different lifestyle.

@nxlee apparently they tend to stick with their own so less socialising with UK residents if that makes sense. Ds says this about Durham too because of course it is familiar and lovely to speak your home language. Having said that Ds does have international friends, maybe it depends on the course as Ds has had group projects (shudder) so you are forced to be with people and can make friends this way.

I have only read it on here so this is my understanding which may be completely wrong but some London students go home for the weekend too meaning if you are not from London and staying for the weekend in London there might not be people there for you to socialise with. Plus accommodation is harder as there are more universities in London which results in mixed accommodation ie not just students from one uni but a mix of universities.

Both my sons ruled out London due to cost so we have never toured any unis there.

More like 50-60% 😀

Ds is also applying for Chemistry and chose Imperial over UCL just because at the open day there was a lot of excitement about the course structure (not as traditional as at Oxford) with lots of opportunities like the Horizon programme and the great careers service. He also wanted to put UCL but we discouraged him from putting too many London options due to the cost of accommodation/living. I think the Chemistry course is around 50% international students. Ds is at a very diverse London school so that didn't bother us although I would worry about cliques and social exclusion. I think a few of his friends will take up their Imperial offers if Oxbridge doesn't work out so he'll at least start out knowing a few people. London will be an exciting student experience if you're new to the city.

I liked the sound of Durham and the student experience seems great overall but I read a piece about the Chemistry course not being very well organised (anecdotal on the student room) and that put ds off. Plus ds felt it might be too far away (we're in outer London).