Schools offers FM but DC didn't take it (block against another subject) - what's their position?

[happyhippiehippo]

I understand that for some courses where FM is 'desirable' etc, unis will look negatively at an applicant who applies without if, if FM was offered at their secondary/senior school.

In DC's case, taking FM was not an option (we checked) as it was blocked against another A-level subject they had chosen.

How do you explain this in an application and would they take it into consideration?

It was in the Cambridge FAQs though Errol - some kind of fourth qualification is required to show ability to cope with the workload if the 3 A levels are Maths / Physics / FM.

Therefore, if a student is only taking Maths, Further Maths and Physics, then this can raise concerns about their ability to handle a demanding workload. Taking a fourth A Level, even if it is not relevant to Engineering, provides reassurance that you can indeed handle a demanding workload.

That’s a pretty clear steer?

Also not helped when lots on MN say don't worry , not needed....

I think the message should be to encourage parents trying to guide children (especially if the school/college isn't supplying good information) is to worry at the right stage. What you and wombat say is all true. And on these MN threads it's good to say it for the benefit of other parents looking for advice.

However for the OPs kid at this stage it's probably best not get bent out of shape about it. They have lots of other options. They may want to do some extra maths in addition to their A level, they may want to get some more detail on specific courses and their requirements. I think that's where they need to focus now.

That’s a pretty clear steer?

It's an indication that something beyond the 3 a levels is required. It does not absolutely have to be a fourth A level, though that may be the most straightforward approach to demonstrating capacity for workload. Unlike other places, they do aptitude tests (not the maths ones mentioned upthread btw) and interview and probably read the PS.

In most places, FM can only be taken if as a 4th A Level. It couldn’t be taken as one of just 3. Many places timetable FM with Maths and don’t give the full teaching time for another A Level.

I’d imagine few applicants with FM have just 3 A Levels. When AS was a thing, perhaps they might then, but much less likely now.

The only people I’ve known who had FM within just 3 A Levels started with 4 and dropped something they were weaker at because of health. Given mitigating health circumstances, 3 including FM would be considered okay for those elite courses. Other students who had a 4th which was outside STEM occasionally find they aren’t doing so well with that other subject. They might look to drop it, to ensure they only have A star predicted grades. However, unless there are other mitigating circumstances to suggest it’s okay, only having 3 including FM is a bit of a red flag.

Yes, it’s all about info given in yr11. There is a problem when students go to 11-16 schools and the advice given them lacks the investment that a 11-18 place has. The school won’t be dealing with disappointed yr12 who can’t apply for what they want to and the college might not have a clear enough sense of who with L9 in Maths is a genuine contender for FM and A star at Fm and those elite courses. People slip through the gaps.

What these very able teens need is an advocate - someone who tracks them from about 13/14 and helps them understand what an academic pathway looks like. EBACC helped with that but is falling off now. There are outreach programmes from this age from unis and some areas have school programmes to address this, but some do t and people do fall through the cracks. Plus, what is clear is that often students need to hear the message more than once to understand it and so do parents. They all need encouraging to think ahead and not just to the immediate decision being made. It’s not easy for teens to do this. But you can guarantee that those in selective schools will be doing it and making sure the doors remain open.

Again, some people seem to take this discussion as suggesting any courses which aren’t Imoerial/LSE/Oxbridge are being suggested as inferior. Or that because so few go to these courses at these places which have these requirements, that it doesn’t matter. No-one is saying that someone who doesn’t do FM or who goes to another uni has poor career prospects or that everyone should aspire to the particular courses that require FM. It is quite simply that for a small number of students, the option to apply should be available. That requires the relevant info and someone making sure the yr11 really understands the implications then. Clearly, lots of very informed people don’t know the implications, so it’s not surprising teens don’t either. LOADS of misinformation from parents, other students and schools exists. It often sends a message if ‘do what you like best’ as being the only consideration. Of course it’s a factor…but there are others too.

@TizerorFizz

I agree with you about the existence of those excellent Engineering courses not requiring FM: we have them. But most of our Engineering programmes are competitive and most students do have FM. Not a huge majority but enough to influence the teaching, in most degree programmes. I really think those without FM benefit from a Y1 curriculum with a more thorough approach to Maths. There are many ways to accomplish this: it can be a service course or embedded in the Engineering courses themselves. This is more likely to be found where most have not done FM.

I agree with you that FM is not necessary for prospective Engineers; the most competitive universities use it as an informal aptitude screen. The way the expectation to take FM if available is phrased can be ambiguous. I dislike the lack of transparency intensely.

I agree it is easy to switch between BEng and MEng and applicants should know this. I like that your DH values good writing! STEM needs more of this.

OP, lots of good advice here.

I am familiar with the Stroud text mentioed by @SabrinaThwaite It’s very good in that it is comprehensive and I am not surprised that it got her through a Maths-intensive MSc (Eng). But I think that may make it heavy going for someone needing too extract FM topics. The explanations are very concise, especially compared to what pupils are used to from school. Someone making the transition and using Stroud independently might end up trying to memorise. @SabrinaThwaite may have some further ideas, however. I’ve not personally tried to learn from it and I would be interested in her experience.

But I think that may make it heavy going for someone needing too extract FM topics.

If someone wants to self teach some Fm topics then they should be able to get the A level course material itself.. not sure where from but dd did an extra mechanics module so it's got to be possible. If the ops dc is interested in doing this their maths teacher should be able to point them in the right direction if have thought, and emailing a few admissions tutors might tell them which parts would be most useful.

@poetryandwine TBF, I used Stroud in parallel with the lectures, so that I could understand the concepts and then work through the practical calculations. Was also helped by having a DH that had done a maths based first degree that had covered quite a lot. It’s probably more suitable for someone working at degree level but without FM as it’s more applied than A level students may be used to.

Thank you, @ErrolTheDragon

Thank you, @SabrinaThwaite This is interesting

It stood me in good stead - even in 1990, in the company I was working for, I’d have to book a slot on the shared office PC to use a basic spreadsheet, calculations that would take seconds using a simple program were still being done longhand and our engineering drawings were being produced by draughtsmen (except they were all women!).

@WombatChocolate I am sure some Dc miss out because they are poorly advised but lots do not want to do FM. My DN didn’t. 9 at GCSE but thought FM was a step too far.

My neighbour’s DC, on the other hand, did FM, M and P. Of course some schools are happy with this. He’s just graduated with a maths degree from Exeter. Many others we know didn’t want Oxbridge or Imperial. They have preferred Sheffield, Liverpool, Surrey, Northumbria, etc etc. If DC has 3 A levels, which included FM, and wanted to do Maths or Engineering, most unis would be happy. Likewise the vast majority would take you on a BEng course without FM. Plenty would take you on MEng without FM too. You can work your way into it. All is not lost without FM but of course anyone who is confident about FM should do it. Teachers maybe should advise on this but they don’t seem to understand that there are implications for some. Overall most dc know what they are capable of and want three good A levels without the slog of a fourth that’s not needed for their ambitions.

Plus we have vast numbers of BEng courses. Why so if FM is a requirement? These young people might not get chartered but will contribute to society!

Why are discussions always skewed to a tiny minority who want I/O/C? Most do not for very very good reasons. Plus Oxbridge do general engineering. Plenty of employers really do not care about Oxbridge degrees in engineering. They really are more than happy to look at what others can offer and do. 4 years actually studying civil engineering has huge benefits for employers in terms of knowledge breadth. It is important to stop looking at a tiny number of unis and thinking that, for engineering, they are better. They are different but not better. Imperial is, in many ways, different. It really won’t suit some Dc and they won’t thrive there. Most dc find suitable courses and very many engineering ones have desirable outcomes for the students. DH rarely sees anyone from I/C/O. Seems others can do the job! And earn very decent money! Mainly because as you progress with a company, the good engineers can do more than be engineers.

Yes to better careers education. But schools sell Dc short in all sorts of ways, eg only offering one MFL. Dc have to be self starters from these schools and it’s the same with FM.

Totally agree that most won’t want to do 4 A Levels, nor take FM, nor apply to the places that want FM. And it wouldn’t be appropriate for most to do these things either.

The OP asked about the specifically about courses which ask if FM has been taken and which want to know if a student could have done it at their school/college and chose not to. She specifically asked about those places that look unfavourably on students who dont opt for FM in that situation.

So that is the focus has been on those kind of universities and requirements. It seems she and her DC are interested in the places which most applying to will have FM and where they might ask why her DS doesn’t do it, when it was available.

The thread talks about these places and why it might be that her DC hasn’t got FM and the wider issues of careers, university and options education.

For the majority who want to do engineering, there will be plenty of courses they can choose from without FM. And many if those courses are excellent and their students have great careers. All good. But quite simply, some courses won’t be an option without the FM, esp if it was available at the school/college and the student opted not to do it. Even though FM wouldn’t be appropriate for many students nor desired by many either, I think the point being made quite simply is that no student should find in late Yr12 that a specific course in a specific place that they want to do and would be capable of getting the required qualifications for, is not an option because they did t have some key information back in yr 11 when choosing their options.

Yes, you’re right - it’s a small number of students that will find themselves in this position. It’s those students that this thread is about ….and about why anyone finds themselves in that position, when it could be avoided. It’s really not suggesting other courses or places or courses that don’t require FM are worse or not worth considering, and yes of course far more go onto those courses.

Engineering is a broad church when it comes to maths, not just in terms of different institutions but also in terms of different engineering specialisms. If you look at Imperial, for example, they strongly recommend FM for people wanting to study electrical and electronic engineering but do not make the same recommendation for some other branches of engineering. That doesn't mean they don't prefer in some way applicants with FM for all their engineering degrees, but does suggest there may be a little more leeway for some specialisms than others.

That’s correct if the DC really really wanted to do FM. He didn’t. He preferred English lit. If his parents or school had drilled down into his career aspirations, he might have done FM. He has clearly chosen English because he liked it. As many do.

That makes me think either he was poorly advised or didn’t feel confident with FM. Or he has only recently thought about engineering. With DH, snd others I know, they thought about what they might want in y11. Years ago you were arts or sciences. It did focus the mind!

In terms of outcomes, there’s very very little difference between grads with FM and not in the work place. Some employers might want more maths types but others want a far broader range of skills. Plus Oxbridge and the FM unis have far more grads not working in engineering at all! There are so many options open to those who want engineering it’s only a dealbreaker did a handful.

Maybe a list of unis and engineering courses where the majority have FM would be helpful? Otherwise who is to know a Dc disadvantaged? I do reiterate though - for good engineering grads not going to the top few really does not matter.

And Tizer, I guess MN is skewed in having a higher proportion of parents and children, who are interested in aiming for the most competitive and academically selective institutions …it’s true regarding schools and universities. It can start to feel like anyone wanting to go to a really good RG is somehow aiming too low and is an under-achiever. But no-one is suggesting that at all. Imagine what is teems like for those whose children want to go to much lower ranking unis, where actually huge numbers go?? But somehow we don’t see many threads about them.

I suppose academically invested parents start threads and the threads are about the narrow range of highly selective universities which are extremely hard to get into. So people discuss the issues around those. There isn’t a suggestion that great students like your DN with her brilliant 9s at GCSE, including Maths should all be going down the same path,or that they’ve somehow failed it their aspiration if they don’t do FM or aim for these particular unis. As you say, the people who do these courses get great degrees, have a brilliant experience and go onto have successful and happy careers. We all know that often the most academic aren’t actually the most successful in the workplace and MN is full of people who have done extremely well without top academic qualifications and equally many who have the very best degrees from the most competitive place places who have never really had any kind of career.

I’m sure that people on MN will continue to discuss these highly sought after courses year by year. Issues become apparent whereby certain students seem disadvantaged. Parents on MN avidly read these threads to boost their own knowledge to help their own children avoid possible pitfalls, which might limit options. In the end, I suppose parents like to think they had the info and their children had the info to make informed choices. Many of them won’t choose FM or Maths at all. And that’s fine and right, but important the students understand which options might not be open to them without those subjects. Presumably, your DN made a totally informed choice not to do FM. It wasn’t for her and she knew that certain courses at a tiny number of places places wouldn’t be available to her and she was fine with that. All good.

Yes, we don’t know exactly what the situation was with OP’s son. We don’t know if he was a brilliant mathematician and an A star in FM was likely, or if FM would actually have been a struggle for him. We don’t know if OPs child went to an 11-16 school that didn’t give much advice about the later implications of A Level choices or if he was at an 11-18 where the school did or did not ask carefully about future plans and point out later possible implications. We do know he chose to do Eng Lit and presumably he liked it. But we don’t know if he actively opted not to do FM in the knowledge it might limit his later choices if he leaned towards certain subjects, or didn’t really think about it all much until now. We don’t know if the school or college had a discussion with him abiut Eng vs FM on the timetable it just sent a message to say his choice did t work and this was what he was given.

From OP’s message, I suspect that they are very interested in engineering at one of the places which wants FM or expects those who had it available to do it. Perhaps they are now disappointed that those places might not consider him. They are looking for mitigations so they can put him I. The same position as those who did t have FM available to them, so could t be expected to have done it. As others say upthread, essentially the DS opted for English over FM. That was absolutely fine and if he liked English best and didn’t want to do FM, that was the right thing….as long as he had also considered the fact he was closing the door to a small number of courses. Perhaos he thought about it and decided he didn’t want those very specific courses or perhaps he just didn’t think about it much. Perhaos FM would be a struggle for him and he wasn’t too sorry not to do it and to do other subjects instead or stick with 3 A Levels. It he is now where he is and possibly not able to apply where he’d really like to try for. And yes, he can apply to a myriad of different excellent engineering courses and the excellent courses which your DN and her friends applied to. And no doubt he will. But he would also like to apply to the ones that want FM or might not consider him seriously as he opted not to do FM when it was available.

And that’s tough. Students and parents on MN find it tough when an option is not available to their child. Many have previously been able to have everything they wanted. Their child has been able and successful and perhaps by parental support or throwing moneyat things, it’s been possible to achieve everything they’ve hoped for. And the point when suddenly they realise something might not be available or can’t be achieved by the parents I terveni g can be a shock.

@Phphion That’s the case with engineering degrees everywhere. Why just look at Imperial though? There’s a world of unis besides Imperial that can be accessed by DC. It’s one uni in a universe of unis.

@WombatChocolate I do believe in aiming high. However many Dc get where they want to be via a myriad of routes these days. DN wasn’t comfortable with FM. I doubt her career will be impacted. Many posters on these threads have one Dc doing an engineering degree. Usually at a high tariff uni. Usually have taken FM. Of course it suits them to take it. They have also had every single opportunity to make the best application. Others might not be going to such stellar unis (in the eyes of the beholder) but they can catch up and surpass. They truly can. There really isn’t any need for a huge amount of angst. My view on aiming high is doing MEng. That’s the best advice. Where you go should be commensurate with your exam result profile. Choosing the best area of engineering for you also matters. In the real world employers are looking for engineers who are employable. That doesn’t mean everyone needs a PhD or is going to lecture in a niche area of thermodynamics! We, as a country, need engineers. Some will do apprenticeships too although how much some of these are geared to becoming a chartered engineer is open to debate.

We also fixate on well known companies with loud owners. DC are often not given info, or details of how to find info, about all the alternatives. They know RR JLR and Dyson plus a few others but don’t know the wide range of other employers out there aa much as they should. So Dc should get sound advice about making subject choices but not having FM doesn’t stop anyone from being a successful engineer.

Years ago i did A levels in English/History and maths (no FM) and read maths at uni - I was always able to justify it as I had researched what i needed to do maths at uni and knew i didn't need FM- and wanted to choose English (similar time table clash)
In reality i was badly advised as it did limit my choices as to where I could do my degree and put me on the back foot (although FM is covered in uni its very different from being taught it at school)
That said I loved my a levels and did well in them, it didn't cause problems in my degree (balancing essay subjects at a levels is a harder workload than sceinces imo)- and tbh you really don't need FM for engineering

Yes, we don’t know exactly what the situation was with OP’s son.

Come to that, I don't think the OP ever specified the sex of her DC, I'm sure no one intends to assume would be engineers to be male!

Yes! I was aware of that and kept referring to DC. But I slipped once and said ‘son’. Just shows how even when making a determined effort and trying not to make assumptions….they still creep in!

The number of female engineers is still low though. If DC is female, less likely to do FM too I think. Don’t the stats show this? Although that’s another topic!

Another good thread about how subject choice (or not in this case) may affect future opportunities.
Good commentary from @WombatChocolate @TizerorFizz @poetryandwine et al.

@WombatChocolate you are absolutely right! DS1 goes to a grammar, so a selective 6th Form and has been there since Y7. People will believe that therefore he must have had brilliant guidance regarding his A-Level choices, however his school never asked him what he wanted to study and didn't know his A-Level choices until the GCSE results day. I had researched top universities (although he wants to stay local) and which require FM. TBH he didn't want to take FM although he had 9 in M/FM. We know this would limit his choices but not to the degree it really does as many universities use FM to weed out students although they don't mention that. Nevertheless, I have talked to him and I know he would have still chosen the same A-Levels as he said he wanted to do different subjects. But many other children are not advised.

And then you have children well into Y12 who still don't know what to do. On the other hand, universities want to see a love for the subject so those children are disadvantaged.

A poster on another thread was telling me that she recruits CS students who have completed impressive projects as part of their course or by themselves because they are very good. But universities many times don't bother telling you about the importance of having a great portfolio (unless it's arts?) and leave it to the alert students to figure it out, sometimes because it's their passion.

Also, schools and universities do not emphasise how important an industrial placement can be. Why don't schools or even universities tell you about these things? Also about life-long learning. Some students are happy to be spoonfed through university but after many years on the same job don't do any courses or change to jobs that apply newer concepts, technologies and methodologies and end up unemployable, even if they had initially graduated from a top 3 university with a first.

All you read on here is either O/C/I etc or about university life and having a great time, sosialising, night life etc. I have seen so many students on the student room complain (even here) about their classmates being drunk or noisy, not letting them sleep because they spend nights partying. Some of them are at Oxbridge.

Thanks for all the replies, will need to read them in more detail, as quite a few since I last signed on! ;)

For context, DC has always been reasonably good at maths but is not - as has been mentioned here - a 'whizz' at it (got to Silver but not Gold, but would not choose to read maths books in their spare time), but also doesn't always work very hard at continual revision for maths. Was always predicted and achieved a 9 at GCSE. Same for Physics (a 9); 'logical brain' and did DT, but not a lover of 'solving maths puzzles'.

At an academically selective school doing 3 + EPQ or FM. Maths/Physics/Eng Lit strongest GCSEs (Eng Lit - usually scoring well above the average for the year group). Block against the Eng Lit v FM but didn't want to take FM and then be stuck with it if not loving it. So yes, there was a choice of sorts but ideally would have liked to have started with 4 A-levels but not an option.

Not interested in doing a Maths degree; more inclined towards Physics or Engineering with the aim of ultimately going into the law, consultancy or investment banking.

Not aiming for Oxbridge (although I wouldn't be surprised if DC could score reasonably well, if he chose to put their mind to it, on the entrance tests).

We as parents come from families where we have been encouraged to do what we enjoy; clearly we have failed when it comes to MN standards of career direction for our kids! Our kids also do other extracurricular activities (I know, these are not 'super-curriculars' so don't count on the PS) including sports and socialising with friends.

Did pass the 11+ - not a 'top' scorer but still with flying colours, generally numerical being the highest score followed by VR.