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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Schools offers FM but DC didn't take it (block against another subject) - what's their position?

127 replies

happyhippiehippo · 11/11/2023 15:23

I understand that for some courses where FM is 'desirable' etc, unis will look negatively at an applicant who applies without if, if FM was offered at their secondary/senior school.

In DC's case, taking FM was not an option (we checked) as it was blocked against another A-level subject they had chosen.

How do you explain this in an application and would they take it into consideration?

OP posts:
KingsleyBorder · 12/11/2023 23:37

happyhippiehippo · 11/11/2023 16:32

Well I think it's due to the current narrow system, why shouldn't they take Eng Lit? DC still not 100% sure what to do at uni but take your point not to mention.

A very dear, long retired extremely successful friend did Physics/Maths/English Lit and always said the fact they had both the sciences and Eng Lit showed a real breath and was often mentioned when he secured very competitive jobs!

I call BS on that. Nobody cares about what A levels you did after you have a degree.

TizerorFizz · 12/11/2023 23:43

@WombatChocolate I agree: info on choosing subjects needs to be better and too often on MN, it’s “do what you are good at” (to get the grades) instead of “do what gives you the best chance to get on the course you want”. I fully support “aim high”. Obviously someone who could do FM to a high standard should do it. Not everyone can and it’s not right for posters to suggest this stops Dc doing engineering at a decent uni. It doesn’t. For Engineering BEng, it’s not a barrier, even at pretty good Unis.

The great thing about engineering degrees is that DC can swap to MEng. It’s also important to recognise engineering is not all maths. Physics is also important and no one has to love maths. It’s a means to an end. If young people love maths, do maths. It’s better to think as an engineer if you want to be an engineer to go with your maths and physics A levels.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/11/2023 23:45

How else will you decide who to offer to if you dont interview and almost all applicants have top A Level predictions and too GCSE results?

Well... there is the PS, which may or may not convey whether the applicant is really enthusiastic about engineering.

TizerorFizz · 12/11/2023 23:46

@KingsleyBorder Employers do look at all qualifications. What they won’t do is think an engineer with an Eng Lit A level is special. They might think another subject was a better fit and demonstrated an interest in engineering.

TizerorFizz · 12/11/2023 23:52

Who interviews? A handful of courses. The truth is some students at top unis are not that interested in becoming engineers after their degree. They go and work in finance! Unis with recruiting courses want the applicants. Why spend time interviewing them? If courses are competitive they have PS and GCSEs but these are the courses where fewer degree holders become engineers!

KingsleyBorder · 12/11/2023 23:52

TizerorFizz · 12/11/2023 23:46

@KingsleyBorder Employers do look at all qualifications. What they won’t do is think an engineer with an Eng Lit A level is special. They might think another subject was a better fit and demonstrated an interest in engineering.

I’m an employer! (of graduates)

I don’t care about A levels.

Neither do any of my colleagues.

SabrinaThwaite · 13/11/2023 00:50

I’m a (retired) civil engineer with an English Lit A level - as @TizerorFizz has suggested, I found it did help with report writing (so many engineers really struggle with this aspect of the job) but I doubt that recruiters would care one way or the other.

Maths and physics will fulfil the A level requirements for many engineering courses, although not having FM will rule out a few institutions and courses so you would need to check.

I would recommend the book Engineering Mathematics by KS Stroud - I’m not a mathematician by any stretch and it got me through my maths heavy engineering Masters. Alternatively, working through the AS FM course at home would be a useful exercise, particularly the mechanics topics.

If OP’s DC is interested in engineering but not sure which branch, then a general engineering degree might be an option?

snackprovidersupreme · 13/11/2023 02:58

I took similar a levels - eng lit plus maths and sciences. It is a great combo and very broad. Do they definitely want to go down a science route? I read law and the mix of subjects at a level was ideal. It's not for everyone but I loved my law degree and went straight into a great grad job that funded the rest of my training as a solicitor.

TizerorFizz · 13/11/2023 08:45

@KingsleyBorder DH employed many grad engineers over 40 years. They did look at A levels because it gives a rounded picture of the grad. Did they scrape into uni and have they got what it takes via the degree? Sometimes degrees aren’t the best prep for working for a consulting engineer as they might “spoon feed” too much. They don’t work on real projects from scratch. So even GCSEs are useful to see if they have decent grades in English! As articulated above, there’s writing reports and CPD to get qualified which requires a high level of general education to pass in a reasonable length of time. Not just a degree. Therefore Grads aiming for professional engineering qualifications are assessed by employers in more depth due to the CPD and exam or professional review process .

WombatChocolate · 13/11/2023 09:59

Look, beyond Uni, lots of things become more important than A Levels or alongside A levels. Firms use different strategies when choosing who to short list etc.

But the OP is asking about the impact of A Levels on uni entry. And at the point of uni entry, predicted or actual A Level grades, and the subjects they are in are the most important info in most offer/decline decisions. The vast majority don’t interview, many don’t read the PS and whether it’s right or not right, some courses are very oversubscribed at some places and have to use pretty brutal and blunt instruments to reduce the number of applicants down.

Loads of people will get onto an engineering degree without FM. Loads of people will get brilliant jobs. They are the vast majority. But quite simply, this is about having access to ALL of the courses, including those at the very top universities which are able to be extremely picky about who they take. Serious candidates who are thinking about these courses want to give themselves the best chance of an offer. And quite simply, one hurdle at which they can fall is a lack of FM, esp if their school did offer it.

Fair enough if a 15 year old choosing GCSE options was a whizz at Maths but not sure if they wanted to do engineering or maybe English and so did Maths without FM and English Lit instead. As long as they had been told that they were capable of FM and that certain courses wouldn’t offer them a place on the basis of a lack of FM, that’s fine and they have a choice to make.

The trouble is when students aren’t told they are capable of FM and the closed doors through not doing it. I would think that the vast vast majority who do engineering at the very top selective unis which do want FM are very mathematically inclined. Whizzes at Maths aren’t usually satisfied with just Maths, but want FM too…even if they do like other subjects. So in actual fact, the vast vast majority of students who really are the calibre wanted by these places, naturally choose to do FM if it is offered. But it needs to be recognised that some students might be gifted mathematicians but in schools or colleges where this is extremely unusual and there is no history of sending students to elite institutions. Often these students don’t have access to the kind of advice and easily available information that other students elsewhere might have. They might be encouraged towards a subject instead of FM, because it will be cheaper for the school to run, or more likely, simply because no-one thinks to point out to the student they don’t know, that not doing FM might close doors.

If universities are all about broadening access and increasing participation, schools and colleges have to play their part too. They have to ensure that students understand the requirements of different courses before they choose their A Levels. Universities don’t make FM a requirement if a college or school don’t offer it - this is an attempt to broaden access, even though teaching a cohort without FM might be quite different to teaching those with it. It’s fair enough though to say that if it was available, students are expected to have taken it, in the same way you couldn’t expect to be taken onto lots of courses without the key subject.

What is the real shame is that the most competitive courses at the most elite institutions remain dominated by students from selective schools and that the very able students from some non-selective schools and backgrounds which get flagged by UCAS still don’t get offers, when they could have if they’d had the right advice. Student A from a school which gave all the right advice who is a good but not brilliant student and who has A star predictions in Maths, FM and Physics, with A in in Chemistry gets the offer, whilst genuinely brilliant Student B who has A star predictions in Maths, Physics and Sociology doesn’t.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/11/2023 10:38

In addition to what @WombatChocolate says, quite a bit of the problem is if schools won't let students do, or at least start 4 levels if one of them is FM. Not everyone is sure what they want to do after A levels, and it's not always clear whether the kid who got a 9 at gcse will make the jump to excel at FM ...those few courses that really want it don't just want it to have been taken, they want an A star.

Spirallingdownwards · 13/11/2023 11:00

Piggywaspushed · 12/11/2023 09:18

But I come back to my question...how would the uni know??

Oxbridge does ask students to address why they have not taken Further Maths if the school offers it as does Inperial I believe for certain subjects.

Piggywaspushed · 13/11/2023 11:01

Oxbridge and Imperial are rarefied worlds, though.

FFSWhatToDoNow · 13/11/2023 11:05

I chose arts and languages plus maths, which my school said they could not accommodate because sciences run at the same time as the arts language.

I went to a second sixth form to do Maths. Could your son find a different way to do FM?

Spirallingdownwards · 13/11/2023 11:11

@Piggywaspushed I agree they are but for students who do want to apply there they need this information when choosing A levels. A recent FOI shows only 6-8% of economics graduates have FM.

Cambridge Engineering website states that those applying without FM have extra maths during year 1 and that their applications may be disadvantaged by not having it.

WombatChocolate · 13/11/2023 11:15

Piggywaspushed · 13/11/2023 11:01

Oxbridge and Imperial are rarefied worlds, though.

Yes they are and clearly most won’t be applying to them.

But broadening access includes broadening it into the rare field worlds too. It’s not good enough to say that students from Comps which have a limited history of sending students to RG unis and having more than 1 or 2 doing FM, get into the mid tier RG unis due to contextual offers, but can’t meet the entry requirements of the very top tier.

The very able who COULD access these elite courses if they wanted to, need to have the information about what is required. No-one who is an elite mathematicians who wants to do Maths or Engineering or Economics or CS should find at the end of yr12 that their A Level choices preclude them from applying to the top courses and competing with those from other schools of similar abilities, simply because they hadn’t been told the key bits of information in mid yr11 and after GCSEs when finalising A Level choices.

If they themselves decide they don’t want to apply to Imperial or LSE or Oxbridge, that’s absolutely fine and heir choice. Many excellent candidates who could apply choose not to. That’s fine. Lots of other courses are great. But the point is that they should have had the information to make choices that would enable them to choose to apply if they wish to. Still, there are students who have a nasty shock at the end of yr12, or even perhaps do t have the nasty shock because although they absolutely would be great candidates for these courses, the fact that their school or college doesn’t mention FM hardly ever, or elite institutions which might require it, sends the message that such courses and places are ‘not for people like us’ but for some ‘other’ 18 year olds who are in some way different. And that is wrong.

The message that ‘there are lots of other great places’ might be correct but also sends the message that there are still certain places out or reach. How can that be okay?

And I don’t think OP’s child is necessarily in this place. FM was an option in their school. If didn’t timetable with some other options they liked. I’m not entirely clear if they were told the possible implications for a narrow number of degree courses at a small number of elite institutions or not? Were they told and decided it didn’t matter because engineering at a top uni wasn’t on their radar? Fine. Or weren’t they told? Certainly some young people are not told.

WombatChocolate · 13/11/2023 11:19

Spirallingdownwards · 13/11/2023 11:14

Yes, the 2nd part makes it clear. But the question is whether students are told this information. It is schools and colleges that need to give the information.

Yes, it’s a small number of places, but all strong mathematicians need telling this information IN CASE they decide to go down this route. No-one is saying they should go down this route or alternatives are a lease option, just students need to know about choices possibly opening and closing doors. As the Sutton Trust used to call it, it’s all about Informed Choices.

SabrinaThwaite · 13/11/2023 11:19

Spirallingdownwards · 13/11/2023 11:14

See also q8:

Therefore, if a student is only taking Maths, Further Maths and Physics, then this can raise concerns about their ability to handle a demanding workload. Taking a fourth A Level, even if it is not relevant to Engineering, provides reassurance that you can indeed handle a demanding workload.

Spirallingdownwards · 13/11/2023 11:19

@WombatChocolate Spot on. Its the fact that many don't even look at uni entry criteria until y12 or end of y12 that is the issue. I suspect exacerbated in some areas where schools don't have sixth forms and students move on to a sixth form college so the school that has them to y11 never needs to address A level choices in reality either.

Also not helped when lots on MN say don't worry , not needed....

Spirallingdownwards · 13/11/2023 11:20

SabrinaThwaite · 13/11/2023 11:19

See also q8:

Therefore, if a student is only taking Maths, Further Maths and Physics, then this can raise concerns about their ability to handle a demanding workload. Taking a fourth A Level, even if it is not relevant to Engineering, provides reassurance that you can indeed handle a demanding workload.

Yes they see it as a 4th A level. But they still say an application is disadvantaged by not having it.

KingsleyBorder · 13/11/2023 11:25

TizerorFizz · 13/11/2023 08:45

@KingsleyBorder DH employed many grad engineers over 40 years. They did look at A levels because it gives a rounded picture of the grad. Did they scrape into uni and have they got what it takes via the degree? Sometimes degrees aren’t the best prep for working for a consulting engineer as they might “spoon feed” too much. They don’t work on real projects from scratch. So even GCSEs are useful to see if they have decent grades in English! As articulated above, there’s writing reports and CPD to get qualified which requires a high level of general education to pass in a reasonable length of time. Not just a degree. Therefore Grads aiming for professional engineering qualifications are assessed by employers in more depth due to the CPD and exam or professional review process .

@TizerorFizz the assertion that I doubted was pp saying that a successful engineer claimed that
A very dear, long retired extremely successful friend did Physics/Maths/English Lit and always said the fact they had both the sciences and Eng Lit showed a real breath and was often mentioned when he secured very competitive jobs!

Having employers hark back to your English lit A-level as you move up the ladder through various “very competitive jobs” is highly unlikely and not at all the scenario you describe in relation to looking at A levels to check a new graduate can write.

SabrinaThwaite · 13/11/2023 11:25

My point is that for engineering at Cambridge you have to have a 4th A level
if you’re doing Maths, Physics and FM because of the overlap of course content.

So in the case of OP’s DC, they would still have to have a 4th subject if they dropped English Lit for FM.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/11/2023 11:30

Yes they see it as a 4th A level. But they still say an application is disadvantaged by not having it.

No, that's not quite right. They see the FM as one of the main 3 - and will ask for an A star in it - it's the 'something else' after fm, maths and physics which they see as the fourth. The 'something else' could be something other than an a level - mine did an AS and a relevant EPQ, that seemed to suffice. Perhaps wouldn't have if she'd gone to a top independent where 4 or 5 are the norm!

ErrolTheDragon · 13/11/2023 11:32

SabrinaThwaite · 13/11/2023 11:25

My point is that for engineering at Cambridge you have to have a 4th A level
if you’re doing Maths, Physics and FM because of the overlap of course content.

So in the case of OP’s DC, they would still have to have a 4th subject if they dropped English Lit for FM.

No, not necessarily the case. Maybe less likely to get an offer but 3 can be enough.