Schools offers FM but DC didn't take it (block against another subject) - what's their position?

[happyhippiehippo]

I understand that for some courses where FM is 'desirable' etc, unis will look negatively at an applicant who applies without if, if FM was offered at their secondary/senior school.

In DC's case, taking FM was not an option (we checked) as it was blocked against another A-level subject they had chosen.

How do you explain this in an application and would they take it into consideration?

My DS is studying engineering and he commented that majority have FM and those that didn't are finding it hard and having to do extra work to keep up.

Are they finding they now prefer the physics and maths? I mean if they wanted to do an Eng Lit degree they certainly could so that's a benefit.

Just checked out a random couple of RG unis and neither of those I looked at even mentions FM as a requirement tho one listed it as a variant for a lower offer if you had a B in FM. So I wouldn;t worry too much. I presume they are in yr 12? Why not book into some open days (there might be some still being held in Nov/Dec, or else next summer) and chat about it to the staff? They can give a steer as to whether FM is helpful - and thus if it is worth DC self-studying the AS in yr 13.

@clary On these threads there is way too much concern about FM for engineering. It’s a good idea at the top 10 unis but lots of courses just want maths. FM is not a requirement. It won’t stop anyone getting an offer. There’s a huge number of great engineering degrees where Dc are very employable.

@happyhippiehippo He doesn’t need to worry about FM. Just don’t mention it. Make sure he goes for MEng if he can. If he does BEng he can trade up anyway if he’s good enough. Lots of jobs available. I suggest he looks at the various branches of engineering to make an informed choice and then look at courses and unis. DH has employed many civil engineers and lots don’t have FM. This absolutely doesn’t mean they are not capable engineers who will get qualified.

By the way he would not be particularly interested in English Lit. Or seeing it as an A level. It adds little and doesn’t make Dc a better engineer as it’s not a problem solving qualification. More useful these days is Geography or Technology as they can be more directly applied to different forms engineering . At least Eng Lit might help with writing reports in good English! Hopefully.

FM isn't usually a requirement because not all schools offer it. But it does seem to offer an advantage when you start the course.

From my DC it sounds like they run catch up courses in the first year so that everyone is on the same level.

I wouldn't mention it at all on the application.

I have read this about FM lots on here . I did scour a few uni prospectuses for this two years ago and couldn't specifically find this mentioned . This was largely because DS's very very very clever friend got rejections for economics and we suspected it was lack of FM even though none of the unis he applied to required it or even suggested it was preferred. All turned put well as Warwick didn't seem to mind, and Cambridge interviewed him.

How will a university know if a school offers FM?

The safest thing to do OP is to take it. It does make me sad, though, that children are forced to be so very narrow.

There is nothing stopping your son from studying some of the further maths topics on his own. It is perfectly possibly to learn some of it himself - borrow/buy a textbook (or ask at school for access if they use online ones) and there are numerous YouTube videos that he can watch (Haberdashers Adams do very good ones for Edexcel syllabus). He can then write about this independent study in his personal statement.

There’s a section in the reference for extenuating circumstances. You could ask his tutor or head of sixth form to include a line there saying he’d have been capable of FM but subject clashes meant it wasn’t possible for him to take it.

There certainly are some unis who very much expect students to have taken FM if it was offered. But there are also plenty that don't.

Studying towards AS FM would be sensible. Further Mechanics 1 and 2 would be very useful for an engineer, and both are quite accessible for a good physicist.

But I come back to my question...how would the uni know??

Uni’s know that at 16 students don’t always know what they want to study at uni / make the right choices.

Eng lit is a great A level and physics and maths are all that is needed for Engineering.

If applying this year, you could write that due to option blocks FM wasn’t chosen, but lots of schools don’t even offer it. Write about his strengths and his interests, what has he read / watched / done recently that has been relevant.

Next year it is all different anyway, so don’t worry about it until the new format is fully released.

I really wouldn't do this. It was possible for OP's DC to take FM, they just chose not to. Which is fine.

@Piggywaspushed I think the point is, if FM is expected (say on a pure maths degree) then if a student couldn't take it (only one sixth form in the area and FM not offered there) then they should flag this on their PS. Otherwise the assumption is, it was available. But I don't really think that applies here, as the student is not looking at a maths degree.

Yes, I thought so too clary but it was a generalised assumption in the last couple of years about economics degrees, too - presumably because they are so oevr subscribed. I do think it's a bit dissembling of universities not to be open about these things. If they are, it's fine.

I think a lot of this comes down to who you are competing against and if you are looking for "top" universities. Taking 4 A levels puts you in a minority category of less than 5% compared to the vast majority who take 3. FM is usually offered as a 4th A level.

From memory universities are not allowed to directly ask for FM because it isn't offered at some schools which I believe means state schools. This would be seen as discriminating against those who had no opportunity to take it. For Ds applying for computer science the stats were that just one applicant who did A levels was offered a place without having FM but all the rest did. Scottish Highers do not have a FM equivalent but they may cover FM content under maths.

If a course is oversubscribed and pretty much everyone has FM and your son doesn't it puts him at a disadvantage for degrees with some maths in ie physics or engineering.

Ds's mate was looking at studying physics and admissions said if a student didn't have FM they would be disadvantaged as they would be spending year 1 of their degree also learning FM concepts alongside everything else. So depending on where you think he is headed grades wise and what unis would be a realistic option for him I would contact their admissions departments and ask them directly.

I'm not sure the stats of entry with/without FM is helpful, unless you know how many apply with/without FM. I imagine that the vast majority of maths or engineering students will probably have taken it, so of course the offers will reflect that.

OP, the right uni for your DC will be out there and will be interested in someone with Eng Lit as the 3rd A-level. As an engineer myself I think it's a great idea not to close off essay based subjects too early.

There are two things to be considered:

1. Some universities will require FM (if available, which it was), or be much more likely to make an offer, so take care in deciding where to apply.
2. At more universities, many of those studying engineering or physics will have done FM, and so it will be harder work catching up for those who haven't. This is something to ask about at open days - do students find it to be the case, are there catch-up classes?

Self-studying at least some of FM will help with (2), and if mentioned in their application, may make a difference with (1) in some cases.

With hindsight, maybe he'd have been better moving to a sixth form that could accommodate him doing the four A-levels.

I think you will find that most uni's will say FM not compulsory but when you dig into the successful applicants stats, most will have FM. I'm talking about the most competitive uni courses here though. It might not make any difference for a mid level university. However, for engineering, having some FM knowledge will make the course a bit easier.

I didn't do FM and have an MEng from a top university and PhD from RG university. I now earn over 6 figures. I never felt not having FM held me back.

Hi, OP -

As a former RG STEM admissions tutor, I am sorry this happened and I agree that the English system forces premature specialisation. Nevertheless from an admissions perspective what I see is that when push came to shove, your DS preferred Eng Lit to FM and I would not highlight that to admissions tutors (even though we need more engineers who can write well).

Usually referees will highlight if pupils were unable to access FM, for those who wonder.

Most of our Engineering programmes have a mandatory Y1 Maths module that ostensibly reviews FM at triple pace and has extra bespoke elements. A majority of our Engineering students have done FM and I think the others do struggle, for the most part. Then, as PP say, there is the question of who gets the offers in the first place. There is a lot of discretion.

I think it is good for students’ confidence to feel secure in their standing. There is no inherent reason that engineering students need FM, but it will, or should, be taught a bit differently when the majority do not have it. (This won’t necessarily be visible in comparing course modules). I would suggest your DS consider programmes — there should be good ones — where the majority have not done FM. This way he will be on a level playing field. Best wishes to him

Great post from @poetryandwine

@poetryandwine There is way too much emphasis on FM for engineering. (CA isn’t the same). Loads of excellent engineering courses are available without needing it and for BEng, far fewer have it. Moving up to MEng is always possible.

It’s also only a good idea at a relatively few number of unis. Former polys and 1960s unis are offering perfectly good degrees to young people without FM. They are not overly competitive. If at all. These young people will get jobs too as we have a shortage of engineers. MEng is better but that degree is not out of the question without FM. Not at all. A student with a natural flair for engineering and a willingness to learn would be fine. How do all the students manage without FM? They work at it. They get good degrees. They get jobs.

Absolutely agree with engineers needing to be able to write English - DH fed up with correcting reports with poor grammar/spelling. Lets the company down if they go out to clients.

There’s another thread, where a poster says their son who applied to Imperial or LSE (can’t remember which) was sent a Form to complete which asked if their school offered FM.

Clearly the unis want to distinguish between those who could have done it and opted not to, and those who had no option. They don’t want to disadvantage the latter group. But essentially they do expect those who could have done to it to have chosen it.

I think it all depends on the types of unis students are looking at. Without a doubt, for the most competitive mathematical degrees, FM is expected from anyone who could have taken it. And as others have said, it’s not just about it being part of the standard offer, but having studied those topics and having the confidence this gives, when on the course itself.

I agree that a student who opted to do a different subject instead of FM and didn’t prioritise the FM over the other subject, simply doesn’t look as committed to Maths as they ideally would look. In all likelihood it’s a non STEM subject, as usually STEM wouldn’t be timetabled to clash with FM. And yes, lots of 16 year olds haven’t fully decided on their pathway and some want a broader range of A Levels. All true, but doesn’t then indicate this is a student with a deep love for Maths….which is what’s wanted. When some of these courses have SO many applicants and they are going to have to turn lots away who are really good, the lack of FM, esp if that has been a choice, is a key way to do it.

Some schools and colleges don’t do their students the service they deserve by pointing out at options time, that for some courses and unis, FM is basically essential. It’s heartbreaking to hear of students who are great mathematicians and who are interested in doing the kind of degrees that want FM not getting the advice they need and ending up with a set of options that closes doors to some of the best courses.

@WombatChocolate The OP was talking about engineering. Not maths. You don’t need FM for many engineering degrees. MN is obsessed with Imperial. The vast, vast majority don’t go there yet manage to get decent jobs. They are very capable engjneers and few posters are engjneers or recruit engineers. My DH finds the maths isn’t an issue when recruiting. The bigger issue the engineers don’t recognise the engineering problem be solved in the first place. They might be great at maths but don’t know what they need to use it for in real life.

I’m with @clary How do unis know? Many engineering courses will just look at predicted grades. They are not competitive courses. Many are recruiting courses.

I agree that most courses are recruiting courses and students won’t find a requirement for FM to do engineering. Most students will end up on these kind of courses at these kind of places. And that’s fine.

There are some students though, who would like to go for a top tier uni and have the ability to apply for one of those competitive courses and to do well on one. The great pity is when one of those students finds their application won’t be competitive against the other many students competing for the small number of places who do have FM.

I accept that these students are in the minority. But the point is that information for students making their option choices about possible implications and closed doors is vital. You can’t keep every door open, but when you close a small number of doors, you should be doing so in the knowledge of what you are doing.

In most cases, the kind of students who might get places to these top tier competitive courses to do Maths or Engineering or CS love Maths and would want to do FM if it were available. They might still like English or non-stem subjects, but they would opt for double maths. Often those who have it available at their school and don’t do it, actually aren’t brilliant mathematicians. They might be good and capable of an A or A* at a push, but not the type to do really well in FM. Or they are good at Maths, but don’t love it. Or actually, they do love something else more and rightly go for that…..but you can’t keep all options open. And as students move beyond GCSEs, they are closing doors and acceptance of that has to happen and choices made in receipt if possible implications.

I have known a couple of students who started yr12 again after realising their subject direction was wrong and change from sciences to humanities or vv. They realised their passion wasn’t what they had thought it was and knew their current A Levels wouldn’t get them to the course they wanted. For more students, there’s probably the realisation that they haven’t got one key subject and that’s a barrier to the next stage…the obvious example being not doing Maths A Level, which is a requirement for lots of courses. No FM might only limit exactly where you are likely to get an offer, rather than closing the door to all courses of a certain type. And whilst it’s right to say there will be plenty of other good places that one could study at instead, for some students, the very top is where they have their hearts set and if their capabilities lie within that kind of ability range, it’s not great to not have the option to apply for the very best. Just because most people go to the other places and do really well isn’t a reason to decide it doesn’t matter if students understand the implications of doing FM or not. For very many, if told, they will still choose not to do it. That’s fine. But some will decide it would be best taken given what they hope to do next…and it’s right that they have the info to make that choice.

And I think most courses won’t know if a school offered FM or a student simply didn’t offer it. Although actually it is the kind of things savvy schools will state in their blurb part of the reference, if it will ensure students are not disadvantaged.

Some unis ask applicants for further info after their UCAS application is received. This can include asking if a school offered FM, asking why FM wasn’t studied and also asking if other papers such as MAT or TMUSA were taken….these are underhand ways of identifying who has applied to Oxbridge too. They all happen. It is only the highly highly selective ones that ask…they have to weed people out from the far too many who’ve applied. And this is one way to do it. How else will you decide who to offer to if you dont interview and almost all applicants have top A Level predictions and too GCSE results?

The thing is, there are so many good engineering courses that most of the posts on this thread are right even if they have different slants.

It's pretty clear from specific course websites how much FM matters for each. Broadly:

1. you really need to have done it if the school offers it and if they don't offer it have done AS/some other extra study else you won't get a place.
2. it's not required but it'll be harder for you to do the course because you'll be playing catch-up in maths, as most students will have done FM.
3. there's likely to be a mix and there may be different maths options available
4. it really doesn't matter.

(1) may just be oxbridge and imperial. And most applicants to those don't get a place anyway so don't worry about them, apply elsewhere. Your DC will have loads of other good options. (Many students don't even want to apply to oxbridge because they're both general eng. not specific fields, many don't apply to imperial because it's london.)

If having read the course requirements and descriptions on the websites it's not clear, the DC can email the admissions tutors. They should be able to advise things like whether for their specific course it'd be a good idea to do some extra maths before starting, that sort of thing.