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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Exeter uni reassurance please!

492 replies

seymour · 20/08/2023 17:32

Hi there, my daughter just got into Exeter uni through clearing but while she liked it when she visited ahead of the application process, she didn’t plump for it as her first choice as she felt it was quite “posh” and wasn’t sure if she would fit in. We are from a big city and she went to a comprehensive. Not trying to cause offence to anyone from a privileged background btw, we very much take every person as we find them, as does my daughter but just wondered if anyone could share their kids’ experiences? Thanks so much.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
ReallyNoNeed · 30/08/2023 12:21

sunlighter · 30/08/2023 12:05

@GodessOfThunder - You could get rid of private schools tomorrow. Some people will always be wealthier than others and the privileges this entails will just manifest in other ways. This is obvious.

The fact is, state education in the U.K. is a postcode lottery. Those with the means, can move into the prestigious catchment areas - often the cost of property / stamp duty costs more than school fees.

Grammar schools are also a postcode lottery.

Who is more 'privileged?' A child who achieves top grades in a state school in a safe area in the Home Counties with two university-educated parents. Or a child from inner London whose parents decided to pay for school to avoid their local comp due to stabbings?

Parental education carries more weight and 'social capital' than school sector. You see it all the time on the Oxbridge chats - posters making a point of saying their DC got in from an 'ordinary comp', only to later drop in that they themselves are Oxbridge educated!

I assume you are not from London @GodessOfThunder because, if you were, you would know that the majority in the very top London independents are from immigrant / non-white British backgrounds. Who is more 'privileged' in societal terms - a non-white child at a London private school, or a white child from an expensive part of Surrey or similar, ie. the catchment for a school with a catchment of pupils very similar to her?

Not all comprehensives are diverse. In white, middle class areas they will reflect that. It totally depends on location and catchment.

As for boarding schools, I would argue the privilege of these is debatable. They may suit a certain type of child. But I'm sure the majority of children, if asked, would be terrified at the prospect of living away from home at the age of 13, 11 or even 7. I'm sure you've heard of the emotional trauma reported by people who describe themselves as 'boarding school survivors.' Is this a privilege? Don't most kids just want to go home at 4pm to their own space and family? These children may come across as more 'confident' because they have had to be! No choice.

Anyway, once they graduate who cares where they went to school?

‘Or a child from inner London whose parents decided to pay for school to avoid their local comp due to stabbings?’

‘immigrant / non-white British backgrounds’

Yep, this is me on both counts. I very much doubt that people seeing me in my public sector job, as a brown person with a northern accent, think, ‘she is clearly an entitled private school person’. But people like to stereotype, so who knows 🤷🏼‍♀️

stubiff · 30/08/2023 12:42

@GodessOfThunder
It's this type of thing '...dare to question the type of character nurtured by private schools...'!

TizerorFizz · 30/08/2023 13:19

The big issue here is stereotypes which only reflect a tiny minority. The OPs DD will probably not see any Boris type Dc. Plus he’s in his late 50s!!! Not at St Luke’s anyway.

There are also many top professions changing recruitment policies to widen the net. They will still want the brightest and the best for certain roles. The backgrounds of employees will become more diverse. However Dc need to apply! Not sit back in their left leaning bubble of complaint about, and distrust, of others. We do need to get on with all sorts of people so continually sewing seeds of distrust and dislike is very unlikely to bring about change. It is not healthy belonging to a narrow sect who only communicate in their own echo chamber. Hopefully the majority have the sense to look widely for friendships.

Askil · 30/08/2023 14:05

@GodessOfThunder You asked upthread why no one had responded to your last long post explaining your reasons for the dislike of the privately educated. I particularly didn't respond to most of it, because there were so many ridiculous assumptions and such vitriol in your attitude towards private school children the likes of which I have been seeing on MN for yrs that I could see trying to even counter any of what you said would be pointless.

People bang on about privilege and entitlement a lot when it comes to privately schooled kids but you clearly do not see your own. You also make the classic mistake of assuming all private/public school kids come from the same background ..Landed, connections, vote a certain way, have certain hobbies etc I and nothing they've achieved e.g work experience or jobs was by merit.

Should I start with your privilege? I'm assuming you are white, I'm assuming you are a British citizen? do you even comprehend the amount of privilege that gives you compared to a woman in a 3rd world country the same age as you or her children?

GodessOfThunder · 30/08/2023 14:07

sunlighter · 30/08/2023 12:05

@GodessOfThunder - You could get rid of private schools tomorrow. Some people will always be wealthier than others and the privileges this entails will just manifest in other ways. This is obvious.

The fact is, state education in the U.K. is a postcode lottery. Those with the means, can move into the prestigious catchment areas - often the cost of property / stamp duty costs more than school fees.

Grammar schools are also a postcode lottery.

Who is more 'privileged?' A child who achieves top grades in a state school in a safe area in the Home Counties with two university-educated parents. Or a child from inner London whose parents decided to pay for school to avoid their local comp due to stabbings?

Parental education carries more weight and 'social capital' than school sector. You see it all the time on the Oxbridge chats - posters making a point of saying their DC got in from an 'ordinary comp', only to later drop in that they themselves are Oxbridge educated!

I assume you are not from London @GodessOfThunder because, if you were, you would know that the majority in the very top London independents are from immigrant / non-white British backgrounds. Who is more 'privileged' in societal terms - a non-white child at a London private school, or a white child from an expensive part of Surrey or similar, ie. the catchment for a school with a catchment of pupils very similar to her?

Not all comprehensives are diverse. In white, middle class areas they will reflect that. It totally depends on location and catchment.

As for boarding schools, I would argue the privilege of these is debatable. They may suit a certain type of child. But I'm sure the majority of children, if asked, would be terrified at the prospect of living away from home at the age of 13, 11 or even 7. I'm sure you've heard of the emotional trauma reported by people who describe themselves as 'boarding school survivors.' Is this a privilege? Don't most kids just want to go home at 4pm to their own space and family? These children may come across as more 'confident' because they have had to be! No choice.

Anyway, once they graduate who cares where they went to school?

My responses below in bold…

You could get rid of private schools tomorrow. Some people will always be wealthier than others and the privileges this entails will just manifest in other ways. This is obvious.

I find this a defeatist, even nihilistic view. Yes, some people will be wealthier and have privilege. But the particular type of privilege conferred by private education would be degraded. I’m not suggesting it is a cure-all. There needs to be a number of other key structural and redistributive initiatives to get Britain on the same tracks as more successful European nations with a lower Gini coefficient.

The fact is, state education in the U.K. is a postcode lottery. Those with the means, can move into the prestigious catchment areas - often the cost of property / stamp duty costs more than school fees.

It might be now, but it doesn’t have to be in the future with the right practices and policies in place. There is much we can learn from other nations in this respect.

Grammar schools are also a postcode lottery.

The small number of remaining grammar schools should be closed.

Who is more 'privileged?' A child who achieves top grades in a state school in a safe area in the Home Counties with two university-educated parents. Or a child from inner London whose parents decided to pay for school to avoid their local comp due to stabbings?

Yes, privilege needs to be understood through an intersectional lens. But, this doesn’t stand in the way of the need to do away with private education. The vast majority of the privately educated accrue net unearned privilege over their peers.

Parental education carries more weight and 'social capital' than school sector. You see it all the time on the Oxbridge chats - posters making a point of saying their DC got in from an 'ordinary comp', only to later drop in that they themselves are Oxbridge educated!

If true, this doesn’t negate the benefits of doing away with private schools. And Oxbridge needs to continue practices designed to broaden intake.

I assume you are not from London @GodessOfThunder because, if you were, you would know that the majority in the very top London independents are from immigrant / non-white British backgrounds. Who is more 'privileged' in societal terms - a non-white child at a London private school, or a white child from an expensive part of Surrey or similar, ie. the catchment for a school with a catchment of pupils very similar to her?

See above. The % of BAME pupils in private education is similar to that in state education as an average across the country. London can’t wag the national dog.

Not all comprehensives are diverse. In white, middle class areas they will reflect that. It totally depends on location and catchment.

I never suggested otherwise.

As for boarding schools, I would argue the privilege of these is debatable. They may suit a certain type of child. But I'm sure the majority of children, if asked, would be terrified at the prospect of living away from home at the age of 13, 11 or even 7. I'm sure you've heard of the emotional trauma reported by people who describe themselves as 'boarding school survivors.' Is this a privilege? Don't most kids just want to go home at 4pm to their own space and family? These children may come across as more 'confident' because they have had to be! No choice.

Yes, boarding school syndrome - a damaging phenomenon. But as the current Tory administration shows,those who attend elite boarding schools (many likely emotionally damaged) still often end up with hugely disproportionate power in society. This they have used to wrought great damage on the country.

Anyway, once they graduate who cares where they went to school?

Clearly plenty do - their contacts, networks and sycophants who ensure the privately schooled continue to be over represented in many areas of public and professional life.

sunlighter · 30/08/2023 14:33

@GodessOfThunder - If all private schools, grammars, selective academies and faith schools were closed tomorrow, schools in certain areas would still achieve better results. House prices in those areas would increase even more - excluding people who couldn't afford to live there. The wealthy would buy advantage in other ways. It wouldn't solve inequality. That's not defeatist, it's reality. The home environment is the most important factor.

GodessOfThunder · 30/08/2023 15:03

sunlighter · 30/08/2023 14:33

@GodessOfThunder - If all private schools, grammars, selective academies and faith schools were closed tomorrow, schools in certain areas would still achieve better results. House prices in those areas would increase even more - excluding people who couldn't afford to live there. The wealthy would buy advantage in other ways. It wouldn't solve inequality. That's not defeatist, it's reality. The home environment is the most important factor.

If we abolished them
all and did nothing else there would still be a desirable net benefit though.

And we would also get rid of the “double home factor” - parents who have been to private school sending their kids to private school :)

And catchments can be re-jigged to help with socio-economic balance, as some cities in the US have done to help ensure racial balance in schools. Not possible everywhere of course.

As I said abolition isn’t a cure all, but the benefits would outweigh doing nothing which seems to be what you are suggesting.

Too much inequality in Britain is holding back the potential of the country against the metrics that matter.

GodessOfThunder · 30/08/2023 15:16

Askil · 30/08/2023 14:05

@GodessOfThunder You asked upthread why no one had responded to your last long post explaining your reasons for the dislike of the privately educated. I particularly didn't respond to most of it, because there were so many ridiculous assumptions and such vitriol in your attitude towards private school children the likes of which I have been seeing on MN for yrs that I could see trying to even counter any of what you said would be pointless.

People bang on about privilege and entitlement a lot when it comes to privately schooled kids but you clearly do not see your own. You also make the classic mistake of assuming all private/public school kids come from the same background ..Landed, connections, vote a certain way, have certain hobbies etc I and nothing they've achieved e.g work experience or jobs was by merit.

Should I start with your privilege? I'm assuming you are white, I'm assuming you are a British citizen? do you even comprehend the amount of privilege that gives you compared to a woman in a 3rd world country the same age as you or her children?

I never said all privately schooled kids were anything. I think you are getting confused with another poster.

My own situation is irrelevant. If I was an heiress or living on a “sink estate” it would make no difference to the logic of my argument.

And it’s ridiculous to suggest that comparing my (or anyone else’s) situation to
someone’s in the “third world” is in any way relevant. You do realise there have been social justice movements in Britain for several centuries? The Chartists, Suffragettes, those that created the NHS, social housing and abolished grammar schools didn’t say “hey we won’t bother campaigning to reduce inequality/secure rights because some people on the other side of the world are less fortunate than us”, did they?

seymour · 30/08/2023 16:13

@Angrymum22 no worries at all. I totally agree about alternative routes such as apprenticeships. My daughter is very keen to go to uni so obviously I’m not discouraging it and it’s a good way to force living independently! But it’s very expensive. Some of her friends are going to uni in London where we live,l so they can stay at home as they don’t want to take on the debt.

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seymour · 30/08/2023 16:30

There’s a lot of good points here about grammar schools and comps with tiny catchments and high house prices. Both of which I agree are also problematic. I think Brighton may have had a lottery system rather than catchments? Plus educated parents etc. I am certainly aware of my own privilege. But none of that takes away from a system that gives 7% of children a massive advantage (and as I said previously, people wouldn’t pay for it otherwise!)
We live in inner city London and my daughter goes to an average comp, it’s not as if there are stabbings frequently at school or outside school! Very occasional in a city of 10 million people and it hits the headlines when it does. I do think a lot of this fear is blown totally out of proportion. You’re more likely to get run over on a country lane.

OP posts:
ReallyNoNeed · 30/08/2023 16:50

seymour · 30/08/2023 16:30

There’s a lot of good points here about grammar schools and comps with tiny catchments and high house prices. Both of which I agree are also problematic. I think Brighton may have had a lottery system rather than catchments? Plus educated parents etc. I am certainly aware of my own privilege. But none of that takes away from a system that gives 7% of children a massive advantage (and as I said previously, people wouldn’t pay for it otherwise!)
We live in inner city London and my daughter goes to an average comp, it’s not as if there are stabbings frequently at school or outside school! Very occasional in a city of 10 million people and it hits the headlines when it does. I do think a lot of this fear is blown totally out of proportion. You’re more likely to get run over on a country lane.

I think it depends what part of London you live in.

Askil · 30/08/2023 16:58

@GodessOfThunder Yes, that tiny matter of 'all' which you cleverly avoided so you can turn it around if called up on it. It is very clear your resentment is towards all, so please do try to be honest.

Your own situation is very relevant because while you are vilifying private school children and their parents for their sense of entitlement and privilege and perceived arrogance, you are blissfully unaware that you have the tons of privilege and exercise entitlement over others. There's a reason why the term 'Karen' was birthed(I don't like this silly nickname at all but had to cite it) was used to describe certain white women in terms of privilege. The problem is you've had it for so long you don't even realise it.

We are a black british family, my dc are black and attended public school. Do we fit into your ridiculous assumptions about entitlement? privilege? the stupid connections you assume everyone at private/publc school has? do you realise how much entitlement and privilege you and your children would have over us? we have worked hard and wanted to give our children a chance in life and within our culture, we believe education is the key. The key out of being downtrodden and poverty and a way to understand the culture of our adopted country.

We don't belong to any landed families. We have simply worked our way into being able to afford such an education without help. My dc made friends there because in private schools of today, (not the ones people drone on about before the millennium) they are judged on merit i.e academic achievements or other skill in which they shine and not by how much money you have. They rubbed shoulders with all sorts and made friends for life there.

The private /public schools of today are very different from the ones my generation would have gone to. The schools do not hand out job contracts to students. Networking only goes as far people who already knew each other before they joined the school. The rest is simply polite conversation at school events. There is no one handing out their business cards with a wink to contact them for work. My dc and their friends did not get a single internship or work experience through contacts or through their school. My dc walked the streets like everyone else asking in shops etc if they could get work experience, rolled their sleeves up and worked (as they should!) they've done pub work, washed dishes, done loads of volunteering locally. All their efforts are now starting to yield in terms of employment, eldest has just got a fantastic job. No doubt you you will assume again he only got it because he was privately educated and he didn't deserve it. Private education will only take you so far! they still have to do the hard grind like everyone else.

However, I am glad our money bought my dc the privilege of of hearing inspirational teachers every day. The schools were are very ambitious for all the students, encouraging them to aim high. (That is the confidence you sneer at) They have been introduced to sports people in our community never do, they are the preserve of the white community due to poverty or just plain lack access in other ways e.g Skiing, Archery. We discovered our dc are gifted in Art and the school gave them all the resources needed to hone that talent.

My dc are a delight. They love travelling to our home country to see extended family and understand the sheer amount of deprivation and real inequalities people face daily (they don't need to attend state school here to see that!) they have seen levels of deprivation people like you have only seen on television! and I am proud to say their ultimate goal is to develop opportunities within their chosen fields to help counter some of those problems and to help those coming up after them.

seymour · 30/08/2023 17:18

I live in quite a deprived borough, it ain’t no Wimbledon or Chiswick!

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thing47 · 30/08/2023 17:52

Just as an aside, but a relevant one I think, study after study has shown that the most important factor in a child's educational achievement at secondary school level is great teachers/teaching. Followed by a supportive home environment and an ambitious peer group – small class sizes are not the massive plus factor people typically think they are, SEN excepting.

I think we can all acknowledge that great teachers can be found anywhere, and that the private sector does not have the monopoly on them. Anecdotally where I live it's well known that some grammar school DCs go to a young, female maths teacher at the local Secondary Modern because she is so good.

thing47 · 30/08/2023 17:52

For extra tutoring, I mean. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

MidLifeCrisis007 · 30/08/2023 18:11

DD goes to Exeter. She went to private school but has a student loan and a maintenance loan. She has also spent most the Summer working for Host - a catering company.

She surprised her state school educated flat mates last year as none of them had student loans. They were all funded by the bank of mum and dad!

TizerorFizz · 30/08/2023 18:15

@seymour You are prejudiced against private schools which will project onto your DD. Hence her concern.

You say 7% are “massively advantaged”. I would say many private schools confer no such thing. They don’t have a monopoly of the best teaching. This makes a huge difference. Plus the percentage in private 6th forms is nearer 18%. I cannot see why you are so concerned your DD cannot fit into a group that’s nearly 1/5 of society and quite a mixed group of DC, as posters have told you.

It is fairly obvious that when parents see advantage at every turn in other DC, this does get passed on to their Dc. I’ve seen it in my own family. They simply avoid others and don’t mix. Even Dc at a comp were too “posh” for DN! So where does it end? Division, resentment, anger? It’s not helpful for DC to believe others are “massively advantaged”. They are starting out at uni together. Your DD isn’t even on the main campus. Exeter also has the surfing types at Falmouth and they come from private schools too. Would they also be problematic? And massively advantaged?

I would advise your DD to draw a line in the sand and welcome everyone from now on and not worry about background. . I’m not sure you do “take as you find”. I suspect this is only if people are like you.

sunlighter · 30/08/2023 18:18

The '7% privately educated' stat refers to primary school. By 6th Form it's closer to 20%.

We are an immigrant family. In fact DH was a refugee who missed out on years of primary school due to a disability. Also his father died and he was brought up by single mum ehi had basic English. Somehow he still to be very successful in life. This meant that 4 of our kids went to various independent schools - some excellent, some absolutely rubbish. One did go to a college where somebody was fatally stabbed. And yes, we live in leafy SW London. Just shows that generalisations are usually stupid. If we had lived out of London, independent schools wouldn't have occurred to us.

One DC is now at Oxbridge. There are all types there. Students who went to comps, but often had parents who studied or practised that subject, or teacher / uni lecturer parents or those who went to Oxbridge themselves. Other students who went to independent schools but are first generation uni in their families. All types and all personalities. Just like general life @GodessOfThunder .

seymour · 30/08/2023 19:13

Not at all @TizerorFizz . I don’t discuss my politics with my kids, they can make their own minds up. And they’re not really interested tbh! 😀 Her concern is from having looked round there herself and not seeing much diversity which is obviously quite different from her school friendship group. But I’m very reassured by all the lovely mums on here.
As I said previously, some of my best work colleagues are privately educated and privately educate their children. It’s not difficult to separate the private from the political. It’s a sad world if we can’t get on with people who have different views. Which brings us to probably agreeing that Exeter will be absolutely fine!
We’ll have to agree to disagree on the massive advantage. I’m not sure it’s worth the money otherwise. Why would you spend thousands of pounds a year if it’s no not any better than your average state school?

OP posts:
GodessOfThunder · 30/08/2023 19:15

thing47 · 30/08/2023 17:52

Just as an aside, but a relevant one I think, study after study has shown that the most important factor in a child's educational achievement at secondary school level is great teachers/teaching. Followed by a supportive home environment and an ambitious peer group – small class sizes are not the massive plus factor people typically think they are, SEN excepting.

I think we can all acknowledge that great teachers can be found anywhere, and that the private sector does not have the monopoly on them. Anecdotally where I live it's well known that some grammar school DCs go to a young, female maths teacher at the local Secondary Modern because she is so good.

Interesting narrative.

It could be used to support abolishing private schools or sustain them ;)

seymour · 30/08/2023 19:15

That’s interesting @thing47 Good to know. My issue at my daughter’s comp is the high turnover of staff. Just in sixth form, she’s had 5 PE teachers and 7 geography teachers!

OP posts:
seymour · 30/08/2023 19:19

@sunlighter apologies, I meant no offence by referencing leafy SW London. I was trying to illustrate that this kind of incident is rare and can also happen in places you might not expect. There is a big gang problem in our borough but it tends to just be between themselves! I hope your DC is enjoying university.

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sunlighter · 30/08/2023 19:27

'Why would you spend thousands of pounds a year if it's not any better than your average state school?'

Maybe your local state school isn't 'average.' This decision (for those able to make a decision) is very area-specific.

Anyway, nobody knows what a school is like until their kids are actually in it. A good school for one child could be a nightmare for another.

One of mine was at a private prep that was so badly run it closed down. Total chaos. There are excellent teachers in the independent sector; there are 'meh' teachers and others who probably wouldn't get jobs in the state sector because they are so odd or useless.

In most cases (in London at least) the independent schools worth going to are such competitive entry, it's not a case of you choosing them, it's a case of your child being the top x% the entry exams and interview process.

sunlighter · 30/08/2023 19:29

No offence taken at all @seymour !

GodessOfThunder · 30/08/2023 19:41

TizerorFizz · 30/08/2023 18:15

@seymour You are prejudiced against private schools which will project onto your DD. Hence her concern.

You say 7% are “massively advantaged”. I would say many private schools confer no such thing. They don’t have a monopoly of the best teaching. This makes a huge difference. Plus the percentage in private 6th forms is nearer 18%. I cannot see why you are so concerned your DD cannot fit into a group that’s nearly 1/5 of society and quite a mixed group of DC, as posters have told you.

It is fairly obvious that when parents see advantage at every turn in other DC, this does get passed on to their Dc. I’ve seen it in my own family. They simply avoid others and don’t mix. Even Dc at a comp were too “posh” for DN! So where does it end? Division, resentment, anger? It’s not helpful for DC to believe others are “massively advantaged”. They are starting out at uni together. Your DD isn’t even on the main campus. Exeter also has the surfing types at Falmouth and they come from private schools too. Would they also be problematic? And massively advantaged?

I would advise your DD to draw a line in the sand and welcome everyone from now on and not worry about background. . I’m not sure you do “take as you find”. I suspect this is only if people are like you.

Interesting you highlight the higher sixth form % as some sort of mitigating factor, when in actual fact it is the stage of schooling that being privately educated makes the greatest difference in pre-university outcomes (see link below).

What you call “prejudice” others see as legitimate and evidence based concerns around creating a fairer and more successful society. Concern about getting on with, and the unearned privilege of, students with more money and private schooling isn’t the same as “prejudice” against kids in terms of race, gender, sexuality etc. It’s reasonable and rational. And, more broadly, it’s highly reactionary and disingenuous to suggest concern over inequality is merely “prejudice”. It the suffragettes had merely rolled over if they’d been accused of “prejudice” against men, you would not have the vote today.

https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/2019/11/06/paying-for-a-private-sixth-form-education-how-much-difference-does-it-make/

Paying for a private sixth form education: how much difference does it make?

Francis Green and Morag Henderson. Britain’s private schools have again entered the public eye, with increasing concern over social mobility and social justice. There have been pressures for reform from several quarters. The most extreme was a Septembe...

https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/2019/11/06/paying-for-a-private-sixth-form-education-how-much-difference-does-it-make/