DD wants to do languages but we worry

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My daughter wants to go to university and she is taking French, Maths and Psych A-levels. She just got a B in French in recent year 12 exams (following a grade 9 at GCSE) and she says she wants to study languages at Uni (the school will predict an A in French). However she got AA in Maths and Psychology exams (and will be predicted A stars in those two). I am worried that she is focusing in on her weakest subject (French) and it is not vocational either. Also We have been told that modern languages degrees are full of native speakers and that the year abroad is now so difficult and expensive if you don’t have an EU passport. I would like DD to take a year out to rethink languages and explore Maths/Psych/STEM but would like advice please

An engineering degree really does not require in depth reading or criticism of any literature! It’s simply not required. Ditto many other stem subjects. They are often factual subjects where process matters with the correct answers at the end . That’s why it’s not a given that computer engineers, for example, will make the best HR professionals. It’s not stereotyping. It’s just who has the best skills for a task and how best to utilize them in the workplace. Women, can do anything they want.

@MykonosMaiden I only said 'some' as I don't know many linguists / stats to confidently state 'many'. DD would agree with you that she finds programming extremely boring.

@PresentingPercy I vaguely remember I had to critique written papers as part of my engineering degree, plus I had to write a surprising number of essays (evaluating & comparing manufacturing processes as an example). We also had to write a dissertation.

I freely concede that I do not have the in-depth literacy skills that an english lit grad would have but I don't think it's held me back in my career at all?

@PresentingPercy your most recent post is fair enough and makes good points. It is quite different from your previous one saying that many scientists do not read books.

I don’t think you can compare scientific writing including critical review of scientific papers to the analytical, literacy, cultural perspective and creative level gained by humanity or traditional MFL graduates. I say that as a scientist.

That's the thing - I don't think an MFL degree means you'll be a good programmer. Programming in the modern era (with high level programming languages) is very easy and almost anybody can do it. The issue is that most people find it boring. Not that they cannot do it, rather their interest cannot be sustained long enough.

I would say a linguistics degree (with more focus on the minutiae of grammar and syntax) is a better predictor of whether or not someone will be bored with the extreme attention to detail required.

MFL, with no other context? No. Too wide, many are like any other generic humanities degree like history, politics of whatever. Or, languages easy to learn for English speakers, not particularly challenging.

I speak 4 languages and there are noticeable difference depending on your reference language(s).

Also @FemaleEngineer I think the other thing that STEM has, which MFL or any other humanities' lack - abstractions.
People often find things boring because they see things as they are written. To understand the truth of what you are doing, and that all the symbols can actually mean something in plain English - that's what makes a scientific brain.

Of course, again someone taking a MFL degree may still be scientifically inclined but chosen to not do a STEM degree. In my case I simply could not afford it, as an international student. Others are not that confident of their abilities (especially women) and are turned away from taking them, only to rediscover their love for it later in life.

Of course they're not the same. But both types are academic writing, irrelevant to generic jobs.
Even jobs which DO require 'analytical, literacy and cultural' perspectives such as journalism don't exclusively hire generic humanities.

Making PowerPoint slides, social media, tailoring communication to your audience are all important skills for office jobs. People tend to argue that humanities grass are better at this but IMO that's a myth..... The best are those who have done lots of work experience including PT jobs and extracurriculars and that's regardless of degree.

×grads not grass!

STEM has, which MFL or any other humanities' lack - abstractions.
Are you seriously saying that a humanities degree involving literature or films or philosophy does not involve abstractions?

But both types are academic writing, irrelevant to generic jobs.
IMO, the type of academic writing and associated strengths learnt by a candidate will heavily influence how they conduct and develop their role in ‘generic jobs’.

@sendsummer I agree. @poetryandwine I used “reading” in a shorthand way before. I did mean all
the aspects sendsummer talks about.

Scientific literacy is different. DH has recently graduated engineers who cannot write accurate reports. Some certainly cannot spell. They don’t seem to ever have been required to do this aspect of work accurately. Obviously MFL grads would not be doing these jobs but they do have strengths which employers value. Particularly that their brains have been able to absorb one or more foreign languages as opposed to none by most Brits. Linguistics is not commonly taken with MFL. It’s considered niche. There if you want it.

"Making PowerPoint slides, social media, tailoring communication to your audience are all important skills for office jobs."

I couldn't agree more! However, to be fair, I think this is more true the higher up the org/managerial level you go. I certainly didn't do many presentations as a new grad but this was a long time ago using acetates

Apologies for the lack of clarity. I mean abstraction in the mathematical sense :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction_(mathematics)

As opposed to the general dictionary definition of the term.

Of course, we can all have our opinions. But having hired, trained and mentored many graduates. Across a variety of technical and non-technical roles I haven't seen any noticeable difference based solely on degree subject.

That is before you address the question of whether a degree actually adds any value. In recent years (pre COVID!) there have been more and more graduates who have displayed less critical thinking and initiative compared to our apprentices. I often wonder how some of them even managed to get a degree.

This concerns me more than degree subject. If they are able I can tell, and they can be trained.

@MykonosMaiden Again I totally agree. Our apprentices are amazing (and put me to shame). Plus I work with people from a variety of backgrounds (MFL, history, STEM etc). I couldn't guess their backgrounds.

All of the students in my (STEM) School do a mandatory module involving writing and presentation skills, partly for the reasons being discussed here. Many do a UG thesis and/or elect further modules requiring them to present. We’re aware of the issues!

@poetryandwine I am sure universities are. Unfortunately DH does have to reach for the “red pen” before reports can be sent out far too often. Common errors are not correcting “social media” spelling. It’s very difficult to correct years of a grad not being required to present a written piece accurately. Worse is that some don’t learn! Which, in a way, comes back to my original comment about reading! Reading improves spelling and grammar!

Perhaps my graduates are not working for your DH @PresentingPercy . The books around our UG common area might surprise you

So if I understand correctly... Your DH hires STEM graduates. These people don't know how to spell, or at the very least use a spell checker.

You therefore conclude that STEM graduates don't read.

Maybe you're just getting the dregs? How much is the starting salary you're offering graduates?

Most large companies have automated tests and report writing as part of the hiring process...how did they get past that? Or does your DH workplace skip that?

Really? The dregs? In an area of engineering where there are shortages, maybe they are the dregs. I’ll tell him. However it is still a concern that grads cannot spell. Spellchecker is not foolproof either. Unfortunately the EU grads who were better are not here any more.

MFL graduates are sought after. And most people go into a career completely unrelated to their degrees! I studied a modern language and the year abroad (many moons ago) was one of the best years of my life. So much fun if you can make it work financially (I went well before Brexit when they offered grants).

There are also plenty of flexible Combined or joint honours degrees where you can pick and choose subjects from a big list. Newcastle and Durham offer them, probably others too, and the one at Exeter would allow her to do French with Maths www.exeter.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/flexible/exeter/

I know, because I was told, that I got my first job in a very highly competitive field because I had an MFL degree (plus a third language I'd studied to A level) and that impressed them.

I survived my year abroad financially through teaching English privately and in a language school, I'm sure that's a more viable option than ever now ...

I've barely used my languages ever since but occasionally they've been the reason I've been singled out for certain projects, had to do something very exciting just last week as the only speaker they could find (and my languages are rusty now).

HOWEVER, OP's dd definitely needs to be looking at degrees that focus on the language without much literature/culture and as many suggest a joint hons might work. A friend did business with Spanish back in the day at (I think) Birmingham - that sort of covers the bases.

There's a great course at Bath called International Management and Modern Languages (either French, German or Spanish). This enables students to work and earn on their Year Abroad if they so choose. Her maths would stand her on good stead for the Management side of things as well. Bath has great links with employers and industry.

She needs to study what she wants - not what you want.

The latter will lead to failure, resentment and unhappiness

You will learn far more transferable skills by doing a broad degree. Few people use languages less than they use other skills. You will learn all sorts of things on a good grad scheme. Only do management and business if that interests you.

So many useful ideas here! I did a languages and politics degree and loved it. My career has been varied, interesting and well paid and I've used my languages in different ways - often unexpectedly! - in each position.
I studied 3 languages- 2 as joint honours plus Italian in my final year as an option. Languages just seem to lead to opportunities for some reason. I've travelled and lived abroad and made connections with people that would never have been possible without this life skill - languages have hugely enriched my life.
Additional things to think about are the additional skills languages develop. Like music they stimulate all kinds of cognitive development that wake up parts of your brain that other subjects don't reach.
Not to mention developing cultural understanding and opening your mind to different ways of living - it should be essential in todays narrow judgemental world.
But for me a big bonus was personal confidence building. I was so shy at school but learning languages forces you to speak up anf for some reason public speaking in another language is much easier- I guess it's like assuming another character maybe the way you do in drama or acting.
I still love learning new languages and exploring different countries and generally feel at ease meeting new people and being in unfamiliar places - I put this all down to the skills and experiences I've had from learning languages.
Lastly job wise again I had loads of accountancy offers after graduating who were v keen because of my languages but in the end I went with what I enjoy most. I could've earned loads that way but I love my job and still earn good money.
If she's up for it then I'd definitely encourage her! Good luck for results day!