DD wants to do languages but we worry

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My daughter wants to go to university and she is taking French, Maths and Psych A-levels. She just got a B in French in recent year 12 exams (following a grade 9 at GCSE) and she says she wants to study languages at Uni (the school will predict an A in French). However she got AA in Maths and Psychology exams (and will be predicted A stars in those two). I am worried that she is focusing in on her weakest subject (French) and it is not vocational either. Also We have been told that modern languages degrees are full of native speakers and that the year abroad is now so difficult and expensive if you don’t have an EU passport. I would like DD to take a year out to rethink languages and explore Maths/Psych/STEM but would like advice please

Not a bad result, @Bbq1 However you don’t want to be at the bottom of your cohort in your key subject(s). Teaching will be aimed towards the middle and it will be designed to stretch them.

At the end of the day the final decision lies with your dd.you need to have a love or passion for something as uni is tough if you don’t enjoy what you are learning.

Does your dd have a love for another subject that she could study alongside the languages? my friends dd did Primary school teaching with French.

I agree with @poetryandwine . Maths is clearly a necessary platform for lots of careers. MFL far fewer. However it teaches lots of useful sought after skills, especially personal resilience, practical
problem solving (that year abroad helps) and dealing with people! These are often needed as stem people do sometimes lack certain skills!! We need a blend.

Mathematicians, Medics, Engineers and economists have the best prospects in this country. Economists vary according to uni. Medicine not so much. So there are nuances but stem wins out! I would say linguists can do all sorts of jobs and I would not link the degree to a career at undergrad. Wait snd see. Opportunities and options open up.

Because 'computer science' covers everything for highly theoretical computer science which in it's purest form is a branch of mathematics
And lower ranked universities where you can pad out your BsC with 'management' modules and get a first doing very little mathematics or programming for that matter..

Mathematics is the same across university despite rankings. Pure 'science'

I agree with your statements, @MykonosMaiden But this was a survey MIT did of its own new graduates only. MIT is internationally esteemed in both Maths and CS.

Sadly the starting salaries of most mathematicians in America are far below $120K. IIRC the MIT CS graduates were starting on something close to $118K.

PS I see my wording had not made it clear that the survey was restricted to MIT alumni.
Apologies! American starting salaries are high, but not nearly this high, even in Maths and CS, overall.

Huh. Doesn't look like a very large difference.
As with all student surveys I'd question the validity and sample size. The 'low earners' are unlikely to reply after all which pushes the average up

@PresentingPercy it's a myth that STEM people lack certain skills actually. Science is art at the highest levels, involving a great degree of ambiguity. Of course, this is my anecdotal evidence but I have come across equal numbers of people lacking soft skills in various degree combinations, after years of graduate hiring for various roles.

For 'generic' degree roles. A STEM graduate can do anything an 'arts' graduate can. But not the other way around - the latter cannot go into STEM specific roles.

But people should study what they will be happy doing for 3 years... Many are pushed into STEM only to find out that it's not for them.

I personally cheated :) took a variety of modules in my degree, just enough STEM to qualify for those roles. Never really needed it though. I loved both.

Nothing wrong with languages as a degree as opposed to the generic history, political science etc...if that is the sort of degree you want.

Just to mix it up here, I have a STEM career and not only I am a language graduate but my colleagues are a huge mix of music, English, politics, etc graduates. All in STEM.

Also two of my friends are French graduates and both in investment banking.

Only anecdotal but we do recruit also from a wide pool amd you will find this in niche STEM areas as there aren't enough specialists plus it does make a huge difference having people with diverse backgrounds.

DS did work experience in stem at a small firm and many of the grads he spike to had again huge range of degrees. All retrained from scratch.

People will learn STEM skills they need for their job and most employers will expect continuous professional qualifications which won't require maths or prior scientific knowledge to acquire.

My bad, it was a while since I read the OP and I remembered she'd got a B.

I do that - half-read the post and think I’ve remembered it. Good thing I’m not a languages student, really.

It caught my eye as my sixth former was predicted quite a bit lower, IIRC predicted ABB at this stage, and went on to get two A stars and an A (and an Oxbridge MFL offer, with grades in hand).

@Travelban That really is not correct for most branches of engineering. No maths, no career by and large. Certainly no qualifying degree, no career. Certainly recognised qualifications as a professional engjneer.

It is a very very poor country that thinks stem grads can do everything. Just look at the mistakes that have been made by only listening to scientists and economists. Many scientists never read a book. Certainly some don’t mix much. We certainly need all sorts of skills for jobs snd stem grads really do not have all of them. They don’t think the same and haven’t had the same training at uni. They rarely speak another language and have frequently not studied and lived abroad.

Being English/French bilingual opens up a huge range of options in Canada too, not just Europe.

@PresentingPercy It is true that in the UK many who go into STEM will not have had the chance to learn a second language, an artefact of the education system here.

But the statement that ‘many scientists never read a book’ is false amongst the large cohort I know as would be any attempt to stereotype personalities.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that we need people with all kinds of background and training, and that for certain jobs a superficial understanding in no way suffices.
Professional Engineer is of course one of them. I also agree that STEM graduates lack skills other graduates have —- I should hope so, or what is the point of the other degree programmes? But personality stereotypes, just no. The fear of such is already a barrier to women.

I did an Engineering degree (many moons ago) and had to take either a language or business related module alongside.

DH has a STEM PhD and has done a couple of stints abroad, as a result he's pretty fluent in a second language. Again all anecdotal but agree we shouldn't stereotype.

If it helps DD will be taking MFL at uni. I think it's important to study what you enjoy, she took one STEM A level and regrets it a lot. Having seen what DH & I do for a living she's crossed them off her list for a career.

Incidentally I've read that some people with MFL degrees make excellent coders?

Incidentally I've read that some people with MFL degrees make excellent coders?

Syntax - language, music, maths and so on, so much correlation in skills, that’s why it’s so dangerous to stereotype!

Languages are incredibly useful in the UK. My friend employed a multilingual woman (4 languages) in his company. The company exports all over the world and she could pick up the phone and talk to almost anyone. When she went on maternity leave he had to employ to two and a half posts to cover the range of work she did. He was the one who advised my DD to take a language with whatever degree she was doing as it would always be in demand.

Yes we have loads. I know it's not a popular opinion on here but DH and I both have IT careers and there are so many interesting avenues open to young people, regardless of their degree. Including but very much bot limited to coding. Two of my children are pretty proficient at coding in various languages and have taught themselves at quite a young age. It really is fluid. Of course doesn't apply to medicine and engineering but STEM isn't just EM ... hence the ST.

Ps my eldest is doing an MFL degree and another son a computer science degree so not biased either way!!

@Travelban I am also in IT now. A lady who worked for me had an MFL degree as well! I think the difficulty is getting a foot on the career ladder in the first place, once you're 'in' then it's sometimes easier to move roles & get professional qualifications etc. At least that's my experience and it helps that I work for a global organisation with lots of opportunities.

I agree!! I work in a global corporate too...in fairness this is a reality for many grads these days. Its tough...

I've studied multiple languages, 2 at uni. If you start a language from scratch at uni then it's intensive pure language to begin with. Then it's literature/culture etc.

If she wants to study a language pure, let's say French, then she needs to go to France and study at the Alliance Francaise or another (reputable) language school. Work part time to support herself. But due to Brexit that's near impossible now. That's how to study pure language and it's both faster and cheaper than languages at uni. That way you also don't need to study culture, because you absorb so much of it naturally in daily life and conversations with the people around. You don't actually need a degree in a language because you can sit language exams (the European language certificate for EU languages, or the French have their own too) that are at least as highly valued.

She needs to think about what the goal of going to uni is, what she wants to be able to do afterwards and work back from there. Maybe a gap year studying French in France and then uni studying something else she enjoys, but being involved with the French society would be closer to what she wants. It would also be a good basis to offer tutoring French as a well-paid side job at uni.

Got to check out the visas though.

The culture modules connected to languages hone the critical thinking skills that are a fundamental part of a graduate’s development - they need to have at least a few modules that develop this. And a proper understanding of the history and culture is part of the ‘soft power’ that helps secure opportunities abroad, especially in France actually, where people will do a double-take if they refer to Voltaire, for example, and you just look blank. Working abroad is harder but not impossible. Only today a leading Brexiter, George Eustice, is calling for a return of free movement for under-35s now that he’s seen the damage he and his ilk have done.

I seem to have two linguists and a computer scientist. One of the linguists might also make a decent coder, the other is frankly ropy on the grammar/syntax side but loves the history, culture and shifts in language over the centuries.

Interesting, isn't it?

Some' people with ANY degree make excellent programmers. Statistically speaking. Did you mean that 'many' people with MFL degrees make excellent programmers?

It requires a good grasp of logic and abstraction which are the same parts of the brain involved with musical and mathematical ability as @ealingwestmum pointed out.

However people are multitalented - you can't choose multiple degree subject though. For the rest of the world speaking multiple languages Is the norm, the UK (well, not Wales) sees this as some massive achievement that requires special talent.

People also have different inhibitions when it comes to programming - the main one being that they simply find it extremely boring. Most other things can be overcome.... Especially as automation reduces the amount of boilerplate code. Very few people are writing computer science level stuff