DD is prioritising student satisfaction so ruling out a lot of RG unis

[Satisfiedstudent]

My DD thinks student satisfaction is one of the most important factors in university decision-making so she is ruling out a lot of the top universities. She says most of the Russell Group unis are very poorly rated and whenever I suggest somewhere (Cardiff, Birmingham…. ) she whips out the Sunday Times guide book my mum bought her and promptly dismisses it. My DH thinks this is reasonable as a happy student is more likely to do well but I am not so sure that student satisfaction is the be all and end all and wonder what you all think?

Better still, take all of the metrics with a pinch of salt and do some proper research into what each university offers.

A university that is good at gaming the metrics won't automatically offer a better overall experience.

It wouldn't be my first priority. Of course it's important. But the actual data she's basing it on, is almost a survey, data that's been collected. The right course, the right uni, the distance, being happy, the whole being at uni thing, the accommodation, the town. All factor in. But I wouldn't rely on the ST data.

I think you do get a say especially as more and more parents have to contribute to the costs of attending but the final choices should be left to your DC as they have to be there for 3 plus years. I think these days it is less about the institution and more about the course and its contents.

Don't pin everything on the student survey, I'm sure it's helpful but ex-poly type unis really heavily promote the student satisfaction surveys and have far more students completing than RG who just don't really bother with it. And if those at the RG unis are not pushed to fill out the survey, expect only the disgruntled students to want to have their say!

Well yes, you're a parent, surely you're happy to contribute to her education. And surely as a parent you care more about student satisfaction and her happiness than anything else?

If my DD had based her choice on one small element such as student satisfaction then I would have questioned whether uni was for her at all. Does she not understand about using data to get an overall picture?

By her logic if 2 unis offer her course, one is ranked, say, 5th for her subject and another 65th she would choose the latter if had a better 'student satisfaction' rate? That's ridiculous OP and I would be making that clear. It is obviously her decision however students are, and this confirms this, still very young and often not capable of independent thinking.

Alternatively, is it sensible to reject a university on the basis that it takes an extra two or three hours to get there?

In the context of three years full time study, does that really matter? Probably not.

The surveys are mostly bollocks. Tell her to visit and decide based on that - she’ll get a good gut reaction for where feels ‘right’. It’s very individual and very course-specific

I work at a university (academic) btw!

I think you should ask your DD what she understands by the term “student satisfaction “. It’s never defined in the NSS and it seems to me (senior academic of 30 years’ experience in 3 different national HE systems) that increasingly, students don’t really know what they mean by it. Except in a minority, it means not being challenged, not getting the marks they think they deserve rather than they’ve earned, being challenged and pushed by staff, being “mummies” or entertained by staff. Indeed, yes, I’ve seen feedback from students that claims we have a duty to entertain them in lectures.

So I’m quite cynical about student satisfaction. It’s a known phenomenon that student feedback on teaching is more indicative of their racist and sexist biases than the quality of the teaching offered them.

Your DD can do what she chooses, but if she has the A Levels to do a degree in a highly ranked research-led university, and doesn’t take up that opportunity because of what she perceives as student satisfaction, she’s cutting off her nose to spite her face.

Definitely not.

As a teacher, I'd question if any student wanted to stay near home really wanted to go in the first place tbh! (And if it was their parents, I'd tell them to choose the one furthest away from home!) (only slightly joking)

posters telling students the importance of giving good ratings

We’re really not allowed to do things like this!!

I should also point out that RG is also bollocks and isn’t necessarily the benchmark of quality their pr machine (and the press) would have you think.

@Satisfiedstudent I really would advise DD that these satisfaction surveys are very flawed. Mainly because how many have responded from her course? They can have no validity whatsoever. It’s your role as a parent to point this out. It’s also slightly easier to rate a university highly if they don’t require too much. Obviously the higher ranked elite universities do require more and employers know this. The IFS has research that says RG plus (add in Bath, Lancaster, St Andrews) really do add to lifetime earnings. Obviously some courses are outstanding elsewhere. However this is key! What course? Not a courses or universities are equal! So always choose wisely according to the career she has in mind.

Getting a first from the “university of anywhere” is not the same as a first from an elite university. A 2:1 from any university doesn’t rule you out from grad jobs and is still worth a great deal. Going local because it’s easy with low entrance tariff looks a bit self-limiting. A lot of success in getting a job depends on the individual, not the degree classification but stretch yourself and accepting a challenge are attributes that employers like.

Where you go for some careers does matter. So what does DD want to do? Many of us do have conversations about status of university, career prospects, living costs etc. I would never ever rule out Bath and Bristol and substitute a Scottish university. All uni cities have cheaper areas. The hall coats at Liverpool are expensive! Bristol has cheaper ones!

I'm always surprised by the "it's her decision, leave her to it...." sort of comments. When else in life would we let our children choose to spend £50k on something without trying to guide them towards making a good, well-considered, decision?

That's not to say it must be RG, or that satisfaction scores can't be considered, but that needs to be part of a much wider discussion about the reputation of a uni for a particular subject, the employability of their grads (including perhaps opportunities to do internships/ a year in industry etc) as well as city/ campus, travel/ accessibility from home, cost of living there etc.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe many 17-18 year olds are able to make great decisions about all these things on their own, and are unduly influenced by their peers and what they read on The Tab etc! I've had 2 DCs apply and go to uni and while we never said they could/couldn't go anywhere, we spent time helping them research their choices to come to 'good decisions' which were grounded in solid data and research. Both were very happy with their choices. Meanwhile some of their friends seemed to choose based on which were the best 'party unis' or 'good for sport' or because friends or girlfriends/boyfriends were going there. Not all have had great experiences - I can think of two who dropped out (one reapplied elsewhere the next year), one who realised their uni wasn't great for their subject, and one who was very very unhappy in a far away location when their relationship broke up.

Help your DD to see the wisdom in considering a greater range of factors than just satisfaction scores for a flawed survey, OP!

What are the sample sizes typically like for the student satisfaction surveys ?

Based on my experience of trying to encourage participation, they are small.

I don't think it's unreasonable to factor the travel arrangements etc into decision making. Ok, it won't be the deciding factor for many, but it's probably something that lots of youngsters don't really think through and can have an impact. Using public transport may well be fine for many, but if they are living somewhere where halls are used for conferences and so on in the holidays then they may well need to clear their rooms at the end of every term and it's not very practical to bring your entire belongings home on the train. And running a car may not be affordable or practical either. At my DS's University there is no parking for students either at the University owned halls or on the campus, apart from for disabled students.
There are always solutions to be found of course, but I think it makes sense to think about the practicalities of student life as well as the academic side of things. I wouldn't want any of my children to turn down a dream course on the basis of logistics, but if they had the choice of two courses that were broadly equivalent and one was easily accessible with convenient accommodation arrangements and the other was 5 hours drive away, required them to bring all their stuff home every term and had no parking, then I'd probably be encouraging the former!

REF ratings rate research which whilst v important and v important to most staff don’t enhance a students experience. An excellent research Uni is not always the best for teaching for example. The left hand never seems to know what the right hand is doing

This is not universally the case. I work in a top department in my discipline - both for teaching (generally in the top 3 in ALL league tables) and top 10 in the REF.

Personally, I lead. Very big externally funded project and teach undergraduates at all levels. It’s in the humanities though which are often much better at being all-rounders.

Either support her or don't.
Don't try and attach a bunch of conditions to your support. That's unfair. Your DD is going to be living and breathing university life for three years. It must be her decision.
If you couldn't travel or couldn't finance it then perhaps that would be reasonable but you've said you don't want to rather than can't. Support your DD and don't be selfish because you don't want to drive far.

And that is one of the reasons they are flawed.
Another is students who aren't stretched and have a relatively easy time.

TBH, many people in the university sector ignore the tag/label of RG, it's pretty outdated and as the universities self-selected to be RG the basis of being in the group doesn't have strong foundations. For an UG degree I'd imagine student support is particularly important. If she goes on to do research, then other factors might come into play. Example of critique of RG:
https://www.hepi.ac.uk/2022/08/20/its-time-to-talk-about-the-russell-group/

I think you’re right to be cautious. Students who got to RG unis may have higher expectations than the average student. So they rate their uni more harshly. Stats are always worth taking into account but they are never the whole story. I would be encouraging her to consider multiple variables and not rule out good universities on one measure only.

Well she'll have to get a job if she wants to go somewhere more expensive. And figure out how she gets herself home for the holidays if she goes somewhere really far away. Is it her "expecting" you to do this, or do you just feel you should?

Interesting, I heard the claim in this article, is it wrong? The National Student Survey should be abolished before it does any more harm | Joanna Williams | The Guardian

Cynically my thought was that students at more highly rated unis are too busy studying or having fun to bother with surveys

🙄Of course - it's the knuckle draggers holed up in their bedrooms for weeks on end who complete surveys .

@EveryWitchWaybutLoose unis absolutely do explain to their students why good ratings are important and how it will affect the value of their degree from their future employers point of view. My dept definitely does tell them this very clearly i.e. you rate your uni/degree as rubbish - this will reflect badly on how your employers see your degree so think before you fill out the questionnaire.

also keep in mind that most students cant be bothered to fill them out. so my uni now try to bribe them to fill them out. previous concerns was that only unhappy students filled them out and we had to change that.