Durham - deeply disappointed child - any admissions insight

[albertandlilylight]

First choice university by a mile and really really wants to go there and college system would suit very well. 43 (IB) in predicted grades, am told by school very good school reference and personal statement. However, got an offer for a course did not apply for and for which has no interest. Don't understand at all. Worked so hard all the way through school, told hard work rewards and then this. Anyone got any insight to how Durham are offering and is there anything that can be done from here?

You should be very proud of him @CurlyhairedAssassin I’m just pointing out you’ve listed all the support you and the school gave him.

We didn't try, thanks - Not everyone who thinks the hot housing that goes on is ridiculous is coming from a place of jealousy. There were a few children that got in with no hot housing but many came from super competitive prep schools or were tutored to within an inch of their lives. Its not rocket science that when demand outstrips supply people are going to go a little crazy trying to get their children in and claim that their kids are self starters. We have top 50 national schools and Grammar schools in commuting distance.

@KnittedCardi - does anyone attend those 8.30 lectures in person ?

So you didn't try because you didn't think they would get in anyway, have a chip on your shoulder about those that did and want them to be penalised when it comes to getting into university.

I don't know where you live but I don't think you can say that everywhere is the same, particularly when your children aren't even at grammar school so you don't know what all the other children there are like. My children went to a grammar school, they weren't tutored and neither were most of their friends who got in. The tutoring doesn’t actually make a huge difference. We did practice a few papers for the verbal/nonverbal reasoning but you can buy them from WH Smith's or Amazon. Not a huge amount of money or “hot housing” involved. A high proportion of those that got in were on pupil premium too as they can get in with lower scores in my area.

I know what grammar schools are like better than you because my children went to one. I know what comprehensives are like because I and DH went to one as we lived in an area and I prefer the comprehensives, especially at sixth form due to the smaller class size.

I think that at A level small classes is such an advantage, some areas don't have schools that have sixth forms and this is a negative for those students - which makes the whole selection procedure even more difficult, in addition the schools aren't sending the students straight to university so they are less interested in preparation beyond GCSE. Sixth form colleges have such large classes, don't know the students and really in my view don't get to know them.

I disagree @twelly Larger classes can be an advantage in some subjects which require discussion. My dc are at a very large sixth form college and their tutors know them very well. I’ve heard schools peddle the myth that students will get lost in these sixth forms, but it’s just not true in my experience. They also act as a great stepping stone between school and university. I think it must be overwhelming to go from a school setting straight into university. No wonder so many students are struggling to cope.

@user146539089
It might vary between colleges and teachers but I don't think the selling of a new start at a sixth form college is all that is claimed

That’s your experience @twelly My experience is very different and I know I’m not the only one.

It might depend upon the sixth form and skill of the teachers - I think there is a problem where students are put on courses using the GCSE scores alone. In addition the way that student's are not supported and ditched from courses early before they "count" on statistics. I have children who will be entering that next phase soon and the reports are here are very concerning and genuine

I wondered upthread if maybe her PS was such that Durham thought archaeology is a better fit.

Hope that OP will update once her DD has phoned Durham.

Actually they do! DD attended majority at the beginning of term, less by the end. Some of them are semi- compulsory, so you have to sign in and you lose module marks if you go below a certain percentage attendance.

You sound like you have a huge chip on your shoulder. You should just chill. You keep telling yourself that the only people who don't send their child to a grammar or selective school are the ones whose children are less able. If that's the mantra you need to make yourself happy, well just knock yourself out. I happen to believe, as does DH, that with the exception of a few professions, A Levels, Highers, and GCSEs etc are not the be all and end all, even for an academically able child. IMO tutoring does make a huge difference if it tips your child over the entry score for a selective school or helps them get an A* for that elite university. I know enough people with children at Grammars, or fee paying selective schools not just in my area but across the country who have had to make use of Tutors if their children are aiming for 'top' universities or highly competitive courses at good universities. Ironically many of these people like to down play how much support they are providing. Anyway, If you were so confident in your children's ability surely you would not have practiced verbal reasoning with them. So they didn't really get there on their own did they? Many of these schools tell you not do do anything extra with them for the tests.

Anyhoo, I raised the point as a counter the the view that contextual offers are unfair. I am not judging anyone for making those choices, we made our choice when it came to education there have been advantages and disadvantages. I suspect that is the case for most people. There will always be some that game system for contextual offers but I suspect there are less of them than those can afford to finance an advantage in one way or another for their child.

@twelly I went to a sixth form college and I'm sure my parents were worried due to assumptions about them, but I got an awesome education there. I got a 1st from a good uni in the end.

Can't imagine the class size was much different to that in a school, it was just the sort of size you would imagine a class anywhere being. The tutors still seemed to know our faces; in fact at least one was particularly kind and supportive to me.

with the exception of a few professions, A Levels, Highers, and GCSEs etc are not the be all and end all, even for an academically able child

@Socrateswasrightaboutvoting They can lead to a good degree and that does open doors for people more easily than the lack of one. A lot of jobs have it as a prerequisite.

You relax @twelly It’s really not that huge a deal.

NRTWT

It's ok and understandable to feel disappointed.

However, no one guarantees that if you get good grades you will definitely get into the course you want at the uni you want. It's a highly competitive subject at a highly competitive uni.

That's life.

Call admissions to see if there's anything they can do.

Otherwise just continue to validate your kid's feelings and make plans to go elsewhere or study a different subject.

Agree, they absolutely can open many doors, but they are not the be all and end all. Some children find their groove after school. Hardly surprising if the brain doesn't stop developing until your 20's.

That's not what I said.

I didn't say that the only ones who don't send their children to grammar school are the less able but that is by far the common reason where I live as local people tend to think they are the better schools. You obviously think they are too so it's a bit strange that you didn't send your children to one if they were capable of getting in. If you don't think they're better schools why would do you think students from grammar should be penalised at the age of 18 when applying to university?
How do you know that tutoring makes a huge difference if you didn't do it btw?

If you want to ensure that potentially capable but disadvantaged children from areas with grammar schools get a fairer chance to access selective universities (which I understand to be the point of contextual offers) then yes, you target non-grammars.

A quick scan of Pupil Premium percentages for grammar schools and their nearby non- grammars in a variety of counties shows the disparity very easily.

Example super-selective in county with few grammar schools: 2%

Nearby non- grammar: 37%

Example grammar school in fully grammar county: 6.5%

Nearby non-grammar: 20%

These are random selections, but I have repeated this exercise multiple times over the years, and I have never found a grammar school with a similar or higher %PP than the non-selective school that serves the same community.

My husband went to Durham back in the 70s. He really wanted to go to Oxford and got top grades in all his subjects they turned him down after the interview. He said he was devasted at the time but really loved his time at Durham. My daughter wanted to go to Durham but was turned down and she went to Manchester. They both did really well at the univerities they got in.

No you said "So you didn't try because you didn't think they would get in anyway, have a chip on your shoulder about those that did and want them to be penalised when it comes to getting into university" insinuating that I didn't think that my children were bright enough to get in. So what if my DC's couldn't pass the tests at that age or ever? Are they in someway less than those that can. Actually DS did get rejected from one of his two first choice courses but has scored an offer to the second at an Elite University (UK and world ranking). He decided early on Oxbridge was not his bag, choice not ability. His offer is for highly competitive course ( >3000 applications for 75 spaces approx - Home and international according to one of the interviewers). The majority of applications appear to have been predicted/ Achieved 4 & 5 x A*/ 43+ IB in all or predominantly STEM subjects, many with exceptional super curricular experience. A select number were chosen to complete a maths test and interview. A select number from this received an offer. His Uni/course is not exceptional with this academic profile of the applicants and offer holders. This is common at many universities or for courses with a similar standing. In a field that academically strong and with excellent super curricular is anybody special? IMO there is a large element of luck in getting an offer.

As for those selective school students who do not get their first choice, they are still likely to be a very strong candidates for one of their other choices or as in the case here be offered an alternative course at their university of choice or they will take a year out and reapply next year - This is very common. I have no doubt that after the understandable disappointment the OPs DD will make the best of this situation.

I experienced Durham's lack of transparency myself when I applied there years ago and initially got rejected. During the application process they had casually asked everyone to say what optional modules they were likely to take in year 1 to support internal planning, but emphasised you could still change your mind. When I asked for feedback on the rejection they said they thought I'd struggle with those optional modules given my A Level subjects. When I said I was happy to take different option modules the course director immediately offered me a place, but for the following year as they had no spaces left for my year. I'd been really keen on Durham but it was a dealbreaker for me as I didn't want to do a gap year. All very bizarre.

Could they take a GAP year and apply once they have the grades? I think you have a higher chance of getting in when the grades are not predictive ones…

not necessarily! There are lots of 'pushy parents' in our area (we have selective grammar schools, 2 co-ed, 2 boys only and 3 girls only) who think that their child going to grammar school is THE most important thing and begin having their child tutored at a young age so that they'll pass and get in. The schools did try to offer a more 'tutor proof' test but that didn't stop people still getting their child tutored. My daughter's Y5 teacher tried to tell me that my daughter would have to have tutoring to get in because that's what everyone else did.
I didn't tutor my daughter nor pay for her to have tuition. I did buy some of the books that you can get to try at home but she only looked at them a couple of weeks before the test so that she was familiar with it and the types of questions. She did pass and was within the top 150 for the most local grammar school (top 150 are guaranteed a place if they want it-if you put it as your top 'preference').
I taught locally and we had many children who were tutored and got places even though I wouldn't have considered them of that academic ability. You only have to look at the 11+ forum website to see how obsessed people are with selective grammar schools.
If I had another child, I'm not sure if I'd consider grammar again! My daughter was 'bright', did well at primary school and came out of school with good GCSE and A level results. She probably would have if she'd have gone to a comprehensive school too! I'm not a pushy parent!