DH is limiting Y12 DC to universities in the north due to ££££

[BatteredHonda]

DC is in Y12 and wants to apply to KCL, Bristol and Exeter - alongside other unis. DC will qualify for minimum maintenance loan and we are therefore expected to top up/pay the accommodation. We struggle to make ends meet as it is so DH has said DC canNOT apply to southern unis - let alone London ones. He is recommending Leicester, Newcastle, Swansea, Belfast etc instead. DC is furious but I do get where DH coming from. What are your thoughts?

Update: DH and I have spent much of today going through the uni rankings (is the Complete Uni Guide acceptable source - or should I have used Guardian?). We have then looked at accommodation. For history, the following unis look good (all in top 20 for history) and seem not absurdly extortionate reasonably priced for accommodation:

Warwick, Birmingham, York, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Loughborough, Lancaster.

Loughborough has amazing student satisfaction and ticks all the sports boxes. We will pass this info onto DS and see what he makes of it.

What surprised me is how low Newcastle (Russell) is ranked - 48th (down 13 places). Lincoln is ranked 33rd btw.

He's love Loughborough if he's super sporty. He'd need to be really quite good academically and and sports though. It's tough to get into sports teams there.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

What more can possibly said that hasn’t already.

@BatteredHonda Have you read up on the history syllabuses as well?
He wants to do history with war studies?

Graduate prospects for historians are also quite low at some universities. Even Cambridge! These are the figures that surprised me most Many around 60-65% which isn’t great. When you get out of the top 20, there’s not much in it. However Newcastle and QMU are the bottom two RG in the league tables overall. Not many have noticed Newcastle’s decline. It’s still a fun city though.

Guardian tables are more student satisfaction. Not really intellectual rigour.

I don’t think anyone would dispute that’s a broadly fine set of universities for history overall. However I’m not sure any offer any military history / war studies elements. So I can see the interest in KCL and why it would really stand out for your DS. When one of mine looked at Loughborough history was a bit of a tack on to another department, though that may have now changed.

@TizerorFizz I'm genuinely curious to know what this Newcastle decline in intellectual rigour is you refer to? My DS is a second year medic at Newcastle and chose it over other medicine offers from Bristol, Manchester and Sheffield. I can't vouch for other subjects but the Newcastle medicine course is certainly very rigorous and well-respected and is a really popular choice with applicants if they score high enough on the clinical entrance exam to be able to apply there. DS could have applied to any of the UK medical schools and hasn't regretted his choice for a second. I certainly do agree that the city is a lot of fun with something for a wide range of interests.

The universities you have picked out in your most recent post are all worth considering.

I'll take that to mean that there is no other explanation that you are able to offer, and that my original interpretation was correct, then. I'm sure that you'll come back and deny it, but if you're not actually willing to explain what else you could possibly have meant by that statement, then there is no other conclusion.

OP, your latest list of options does look better from a reputational point of view. However, your ds needs to like the look of the courses, too, so he really needs to research this stuff for himself.

I hope you're all able to reach an agreement on how to move forward, wherever he ends up.

Good Lord, you accepted that you perhaps read my post wrong but now you want to reverse that and continue arguing. I’m sorry I‘ve run out of patience.

Thank fuck. Can you both stop bickering and derailing the OPs thread!

@opoponax
Medicine is one unique course! Not offered everywhere. Difficult to get on. It’s completely different to an overall ranking in the CUG.

Have you ever looked at the CUG? You will see they rate universities based on different elements. Some don’t really apply to medicine where all grads get jobs ! In the world away from a guaranteed job with the NHS, the university matters. I’m wondering why Newcastle is bottom of the “RG league” within the league! It didn’t used to be there. Often it’s research quality but entry criteria and employment stats matter too. That’s why medicine is so different from history. History at Newcastle is ranked 48th. That is very low for RG and I was wondering what has happened.

I hear ya.

Guardian tables are more student satisfaction. Not really intellectual rigour.

No league tables have anything to do with intellectual rigour.

Other tables also include student satisfaction. For the Complete University Guide, student satisfaction contributes 1.5/8 = 18.75% of the ranking score. For The Guardian league tables it contributes 25%, so not a big difference. It's difficult to work out for The Sunday Times: the detail of methodology in the print version is minimal and the online version is only accessible to subscribers.

Thanks Tizer. I wasn't being provocative, just genuinely interested as the Newcastle med school seems excellent and DS can't fault the course and placements so far. But you are correct, medicine is quite different from other courses. I haven't ever looked at CUG. DD has heart set on med too so I tend to live in a medicine bubble!

History with war studies at KCL is his top choice. Not many unis offer it though - although DH has discovered Wolverhampton do and is raving about cheap accommodation there

No, no no, to Wolverhampton! Frankly, please insist that this is a false economy. THey've just closed down and entire school in the arts & humanities, they are not research-led, and while History graduates are very employable, a degree from Wolverhampton in History is, sadly, not an attractive offer to employers. Your DS will not be pushed or stretched, because the overall standard is so much lower at post-92 universities.

If you're going to do a generalist Humanities degree go for the best research-led university your A Levels can get you into. Anything less is a waste of money.

If your DS is aiming at KCL, Exeter & Bristol, he might look at Birmingham for War Studies in History, or York or Lancaster. All those departments are well-regarded and in the ballpark of his first choices. And Birmingham housing is plentiful in Selly Oak (don't know so well about halls). York & Lancaster both "cheaper" northern universities, with excellent Arts & Humanities provision (and sport - the Roses each year being one highlight!) Their History Departments are very good, as is the History Department at Leeds.

The difficulty/cost of housing in London, Exeter & Bristol is partly because none of these cities were big industrial 19th century cities with mass workers' housing.

Frankly, your DH is being ridiculous, and your DS needs to get a proper summer paying job.

No league tables have anything to do with intellectual rigour.

Not really completely true - in league table terms, at any rate.

The ones that include each discipline's Research Excellence Framework (REF) results do include a nod to intellectual rigour.

The thing is, if you're aiming for a generalist degree in the Arts & Humanities, and STEM, it is best to aim for the most research-intensive, research-led departments your A Levels qualify you for. Because these degrees will be more intellectually challenging & rigorous, and teaching staff will be writing the books & articles the students will be reading. Students will be exposed to & have opportunities to study with some world-leading academics. In the Arts & Humanities even senior "star" staff teach undergrads and we invite them in to our research projects etc.

The thing is (I'm a professor in the humanities who works with historians as part of my research) @Titchy is right in her assessment of some of the things your DH has suggested to your DS.

For example, Lincoln is an OK university, but it's a very limited one. It's small, so the range of teaching & exposure to cutting edge research in History will be limited. It's also isolated and in a small town, where it is hard to attract the top-flight academics to teach.

It is a false economy to go for universities simply on the grounds of cheap accommodation - although, actually, Oxford is probably the best for limited budgets, because most of the Colleges are very rich and subsidise undergrad accommodation!

Your DS's latest list is a good one (I'd suggested alternatives before I'd worked my way through your thread, so pleased to see that several of my suggestions are being considered.

With a degree like History, to do well, students need to be taught by those who are writing the books, and study together with other bright & motivated students. It then becomes a very employable degree.

When one of mine looked at Loughborough history was a bit of a tack on to another department, though that may have now changed.

No, it hasn't @boys3 It's not been a good place for historians for some time (former PhD student of mine works there ...)

If this thread is anything to go by, a potential employer will see "Loughborough" + "History" + County Level Sport = Job Offer. Never mind whether Loughborough is any good for History or not.

Unless a job is very subject specific, I don’t think most employers have that depth of knowledge. A history graduate going into law for example will be judged on the general quality/overall ranking of the university they have been to rather than the history ranking.

it is of course important for the student to have a well taught course.

loughborough is always an interesting one since it attracts every sporty kid (who then often gets upset because they struggle to even get into the z team for their sport)

loughborough is always an interesting one since it attracts every sporty kid (who then often gets upset because they struggle to even get into the z team for their sport)

Yep. County level players are ten a penny in a place like that. It's a bit like the sporting equivalent of Oxbridge when all the clever kids turn up and find out that they're not quite as clever as they thought!

History with war studies at KCL is his top choice. Not many unis offer it though - although DH has discovered Wolverhampton do and is raving about cheap accommodation there

With all due respect to your DH, @BatteredHonda I think he might be mistaken – it looks like the military history course at Wolverhampton is only a Masters not an undergraduate degree. And the same appears to be true of the specifically military history courses at Birmingham, Lancaster and Chester.

I stand to be corrected because I've only had a cursory glance but if a university is talking about a 1-year course, that is going to be a post-grad not a first degree.

Yes, my DS is actually put off Loughborough for this reason. He knows the facilities are fantastic as he has been on courses there, but also knows that loads of national level players in his sport are Loughborough students and as a mere county player he'd maybe make the 8th team or something if he's lucky. So he's keener on places with good but not outstanding sports where he stands a chance of actually getting a game now and again!
Obviously Loughborough is a brilliant place for really serious athletes, and it's the first place that seems to be recommended for sporty young people, but if you're "just" a good recreational sportsperson I don't think it's necessarily the best choice.