Oxbridge Rejects 2023 - Come this way and commiserate

[Rejects]

As mentioned on the other thread a safe space for those who'd like a bit of support while not dampening others' moods Sorry that I have gone on a lot about this rejection already on here - it's helped me keep outwardly calm and cheerful when my ds has been very upset.

I am acutely aware in the scheme of things a university rejection is not a huge deal and that amazing lives and outcomes no doubt await all our dc wherever they go, it's just getting through the time between now and A levels and/or offers from other unis arriving, keeping dcs' morale up. Good luck everyone

Oxbridge say something like we don't want that sentence but we understand some other places do - so we'll accept it.

It’s for that reason that somewhere along the line, I do think there might be an element of randomising students, even if it’s only happening within groups which have already been broadly categorised. Yup, or as someone else put it further up (someone with a successful dc?) they pick them out of a hat.

@TizerorFizz I agree that there should be consistency and transparency. Admissions at Durham are centralised so you would hope this happens - but then maybe the issue is the accuracy of info shared by department staff at the open days. And for clarity, Durham don't just want to hear about achievements, they want to know about the context in which people are getting the results eg juggling their time because they have jobs or responsibilities. DD's has friends who were told at a Cambridge open day that they should not waste space in their applications talking about anything other than curricular/supra curricular - so again, the messages communicated by the staff may not be quite the same as what is a Uni's published word on the matter. I wonder if the move towards form based applications in future will prompt all the unis to be more transparent about how they will make decisions - I hope so.

I've no skin in the game here but that makes my blood boil. What right have Durham to offer 69% of their economics places to foreign students?

It's nothing but greed.

By way of background Durham announced last year that foreign students currently make up 30% of the student population - and they would like to increase that to 39% by 2026/27 (see https://www.palatinate.org.uk/durhams-international-intake-to-reach-39-by-2026/#:~:text=durham%20university%20has%20recommitted%20to,from%20the%20current%2030%25%20figure.)

I get that not many foreign students want to read Anthropology at Durham, but I think lots of very very able UK students are being overlooked for courses like Economics, Law and CompSci purely because of the university's greed. And the rhetoric that having more foreign students will help raise the university' reputation internationally is just poppycock....

This gives quite clear info of numbers off home students:

https://www.dur.ac.uk/resources/student.registry/statistics/summary/1.11school/201-11.pdf

It raises reputation and money - together they form an irresistible combination. Still, I cannot help but wonder what is behind the 3Astars declines. I am sure the unis have their reasons, it just appears randomised because it is behind closed doors.

I am not an expert, but my hypothesis is that it is entirely rational for a university to prefer a candidate with 3As predicted in highly relevant/difficult subjects vs a candidate with 3Astars in subjects which are less relevant/difficult.

Reliability of predictions must also play a role obviously, but that doesn’t explain differences within the same class assuming there was no interview to differentiate (and the difference between two PSs will not be massive I guess, unless peppered with some impressive supra-curriculars)

@MidLifeCrisis007 it’s nothing but greed but it’s the way every uni is going because UK student fees have been held at the same level ever since they were introduced and there is no more cash left :( What infuriates me is the rich UK students just wiggle out of the whole situation and go abroad – usually to the U S

@ForeverbyJudyBlume
That is not entirely fair. As the costs of studying in the USA are massive if you don’t get a needs blind scholarship, why do you worry about these well off students going abroad? As home students they free up places here, surely? That’s not a bad thing. You sound a bit jealous!

Around 10,000 uk students are in the USA but some are post grad. I would say it would be even worse to get into Durham and others if they were all still here.

@WEEonline
Do candidates really go for Economics at Durham with the “wrong” A levels? They say they want maths, but as they do not specify other subjects, who knows? Maybe they should specify subjects which make an application competitive? Also, these Dc might get into other competitive universities with the “wrong” A levels. Again some good guidance would be useful.

Those numbers for non contextual U.K. numbers for Durham are shocking and are probably replicated at most other unis that consider themselves recipients of those that don't get into Oxbridge. (St Andrew's, Edinburgh, Bristol, UCL, LSE, Kings, Warwick, Exeter etc).

My DC spent a year abroad in the USA as part of his degree. I wish we'd looked into it when he was considering where to go, instead of the U.K., as there are a lot of opportunities for help with funding. The quality of teaching was outstanding, the choice of modules and subjects huge (he actually got an education!), the pastoral care was incredible - he had more contact with tutors and profs in an academic year than the whole of the 2 years at the U.K. uni he attended, they had to go to lectures and seminars - participation and attendance counted towards final marks, the opportunities from an extra curricular point of view were unbelievable and really inclusive and welcoming. Because of the legal age for drinking it was not central to the culture of the place.

These US unis (not just the big names) are so well endowed (and supported by their alumni) that the funding and facilities cannot be compared to the U.K. - it was an eye opening experience and makes you realise students in the U.K. mainly pay £9250 plus living costs for a library card (and for the past several years teaching has been severely disrupted by strikes and some unis still persist with online). He realised how poor the academic experience is in the U.K. compared to the US.

So the fact we are losing a growing number of well qualified, academic kids abroad for their degrees as they get squeezed out of the U.K. system is a loss to our country. If it became more public what funding options there are to help people, and more support with applications etc, I'm sure many more would go!

This problem will get worse in the coming years as political pressure increases on unis and demographics mean U.K. cohort sizes increase (before decreasing again).

I’m not remotely jealous, I don’t want my children to study in the US. My dc attend a fabulous university (not Durham) and it’s all good here. As poster above said So the fact we are losing a growing number of well qualified, academic kids abroad for their degrees as they get squeezed out of the U.K. system is a loss to our country

My son’s best friend got offers for History from oxford and edinburgh and rejected by Bristol, Durham and St A. ‘Perfect’ predictions and PS. He would have liked to put Durham as his second choice. He has shrugged his shoulders and accepted it.

There seems to be zero logic and it feels the landscape has changed since 20 years ago. Maybe this is more inclusive, maybe it’s more unfair. I wish there was more transparency though.

"Home applicants (not eligible for contextual offer) = 430, offers = 70. Offer rate of 16%.
Contextual applicants =85, offers = 80. Offer rate of 94%"

Hmmm, this is interesting. When DD applied three years ago, it was noticeable (through TSR) that Durham made all the contextual offers first )starting in about November) and then the non-contextuals from about March onwards. It was clear that there were certain quotas for each.

Unlike Oxbridge, contextualisation at Durham does mean students are made lower offers - eg. AAB for a course offered at AstarAA. While I totally understand the reasons for contextual offers, it basically means that most students on a course are getting in with significantly less than the advertised required grades. You often hear the phrase "Doxbridge" but I'm not sure about that if it's all about quotas and the reality is that many / most are getting in with a mix of As and Bs.

At Oxbridge they also contextualise, but offer rates for contextual / non-contextual are still broadly similar. Also even contextualised students have to achieve the minimum advertised grades - nobody gets in with a B (less than 1%). In reality, it means that for a course advertised as AstarAA, a contextualised student with those predictions has a reasonable chance, but a non-contextual would need three or more A stars for equal consideration. I think it's 60% at Oxbridge have achieved at least three A stars and another 35% at least two A stars. If Durham want to raise their reputation, perhaps they need to contextualise differently.

Watching this thread closely as my DS1 no doubt will be subject to some disappointment when he applies for these institutions in Sept/October this year. Despite being a 'top applicant', he is non contextual and a home.student, so he knows he has a very slim chance not only for Oxbridge but the other 4.

We can't afford the US but we are looking at a top European University, where he will be almost guaranteed an unconditional offer based on his academic background, SATS etc. As he is an EU citizen anyway, this seems like a no brainer.

Many of his friends with similar backgrounds have a fall back option abroad. This has become a reality for many academic kids applying for economics, comp science etc at top unis.

Ps I should add medicine too. Plenty of uk students studying medicine abroad.

The problem with Durham is that it is financially quite precarious, being a small uni without much in the way of research funding. The govt failure to raise domestic fees means real term income has gone down which can only be mitigated by (a) taking fewer domestic students and (b) replacing them by foreign students who cover costs. To actually increase fees they need to (a) increase research funding which they can’t do effectively as they are so small and (b) increase foreign students. That is why they need to increase their foreign take.

another trouble is that Durham doesn’t have much of an international reputation and is not close to a decent international airport and is not near a city many internationals have heard of/want to be near so it is quite a big challenge. But a rising tide lifts all boats and the sheer number of Chinese and othered entering the Uk for uni means that a chunk will find their way to Durham. The castle helps. What they really need is a minor royal to attend. Wouldn’t be surprised if they are courting Edward and Sophie’s second kid, James.

Another major problem with Durham, and other leading academic institutions, is that their department sizes need to be aligned with demand from both applicants and graduate recruiters.

Oxford takes 40 students a year for Computer Science and 109 for Classics. Laughable really.

(I'm not saying Classics is a useless degree - I know it attracts some of the best academic brains. But the world needs more Computer Scientists than Classicists..... and there are many more applicants for Computer Science as a result).

@MidLifeCrisis007 ”Oxford takes 40 students a year for Computer Science and 109 for Classics. Laughable really.”

No! That’s totally insane. No wonder they take 1 in 2 applicants for classics or whatever it is.

I had no idea! That is nuts! Why don’t Uni departments reflect demand?

The castle helps.

That would be the castle that's totally overshadowed by the Cathedral - one of Europe’s finest Medieval buildings @Delphigirl ?

but you can STAY in the castle so that is much better @bguthb90 ! Loads of cathedrals around the Uk and in Europe but not many universities with their own castle 😎

Oxford is famous for classics though. It can’t be ‘the best’ at all subjects.

@Bigfatsquirrel
Im afraid very little funding is directed at UK students at undergrad level in the USA. I know. I researched it for DD. Needs blind is the only way. Yes, the universities are rich in many cases, but they don’t necessarily consider Brits as worthy recipients. Ten years ago, DD got a $3000 scholarship to reduce fees to $37,000 for one year. 4 year degree. Living costs were $20,000 minimum plus flights and course expenses. That would have been high as it was an arts course. Yes, some very bright students from the uk are fully funded but if you mostly have to fund yourself, Oxbridge and others are amazing value for money.

Computer science degrees are offered at many top class universities. I don’t agree that Oxbridge must be the Stem Centre of the universe and train solely for vocational work. Most academic degrees are useful for many careers. If some universities take BBC for computer science we probably have courses for everyone. Classics is niche in this day and age. Comp Sci isn’t.

Sorry to jump in with a random question but are any of your oxbridge rejects considering York? My daughter is quite keen to firm there but worried that it does not have the same reputation as Exeter or Bristol say, and she may not meet like minded people

Isn't it simply the case that the numbers of students applying gas risen? The baby boom years are coming if age? Also, everyone seems to want to apply for the same subjects at the same handful of universities. Perhaps 20 years ago, there was less notice taken of league tables. Now though, we are the generation of patents who agonised over school league tables.

Added to that, young people are much more anxious and feel less secure about their future earning prospects. More if them are choosing courses and universities which they think will lead them to be investment bankers or the next big tech start up. In reality for many courses a top 10 or top 15 uni won't make much difference.

Once Oxbridge, imperial are discounted, will it really make a difference to their future CS career if they don't get Durham but instead go to Loughborough or Nottingham? They can always apply for a competitive masters if they feel their undergrad degree was beneath their prestige.

Also the comments regarding contextual offers at Durham. Do we know what those students are actually predicted and achieve? Just because they're given a lower offer to reflect circumstances, doesn't necessarily mean many don't achieve all As and A stars.