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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Oxbridge Rejects 2023 - Come this way and commiserate

485 replies

Rejects · 20/02/2023 13:57

As mentioned on the other thread a safe space for those who'd like a bit of support while not dampening others' moods Sorry that I have gone on a lot about this rejection already on here - it's helped me keep outwardly calm and cheerful when my ds has been very upset.

I am acutely aware in the scheme of things a university rejection is not a huge deal and that amazing lives and outcomes no doubt await all our dc wherever they go, it's just getting through the time between now and A levels and/or offers from other unis arriving, keeping dcs' morale up. Good luck everyone

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bguthb90 · 22/04/2023 18:58

LanadelSlay · 22/04/2023 18:10

Btw a LOT of Durham rejects at dd’s school. Whatever the criteria is for choice, they need to be a lot clearer about it at the outset. My friend thinks they just pull it out of a hat.

www.durham.ac.uk/study/admissions-policy/

In addition to the typical offer(s) for a course, what additional information/criteria do you think they should provide ?

TizerorFizz · 22/04/2023 21:24

@bguthb90 How the criteria are evaluated. Weighting. Are all components equal? Probably not but are they all considered initially or are some tie breakers?

Are options days conveying correct info to prospective students?

bguthb90 · 22/04/2023 23:26

TizerorFizz · 22/04/2023 21:24

@bguthb90 How the criteria are evaluated. Weighting. Are all components equal? Probably not but are they all considered initially or are some tie breakers?

Are options days conveying correct info to prospective students?

As I mentioned in a PP, the 2 Business School subject talks DS and I attended at Durham were explicit in how they judge applicants - predicted grades only for Economics, and PS and predicted grades for A&F.

Aside from Bristol, I'm not aware of any of the other universities DS considered providing granular details re criteria weighting, tie-breaker details etc - all were fairly standard.

And tbh, those Bristol subject sheets don't really offer that much aside from how they weight GCSE/A level grades.

LanadelSlay · 22/04/2023 23:47

It was a friend whose dc had an acceptance who said she thought they were pulled out of a hat - she was being apologetic, as in paper it’s very hard to see what her dc offered above others with identical predictions - it’s exactly the same as the argument on here about whether successful Oxbridge candidates here offered something “special” - some ( usually successful candidates’ parents though not all) will argue vociferously they do, others will say beyond a certain point it’s a lottery. The people with offers from Durham (or SA, Edinburgh, LSE etc etc etc) have done brilliantly- no one is taking that away from them .

@aurea my dc has an offer for English- if E let her switch course to something slightly different she’ll be there in September, big fingers crossed

LanadelSlay · 22/04/2023 23:50

bguthb90 · 22/04/2023 18:58

www.durham.ac.uk/study/admissions-policy/

In addition to the typical offer(s) for a course, what additional information/criteria do you think they should provide ?

Exactly as @TizerorFizz says. Clearly there’s huge discrepancies between university departments and again between universities

bguthb90 · 23/04/2023 01:10

Differences yes @LanadelSlay. Huge ones ? No.

Netcam · 23/04/2023 10:41

Just updating here. DS1 didn't get into Cambridge after interview, has been debating between Warwick and Durham offers and is now pretty set on Durham (Maths). Is probably going for Bath as reserve, although there is little difference in the offer grades between that and Durham. York is another option for reserve with lower offer grades, but he's less keen. Is predicted AAAA, got AAA*A in most recent mocks and 6.9 in TMUA, so thinks he will make the Durham grades unless anything goes terribly wrong on exam days.

Rejects · 24/04/2023 09:37

Good to hear your ds is almost settled @Netcam, really good luck to him.

On the Durham thing - so in ds's year one child's been accepted, one rejected for the same subject. The latter has much better A Level predictions of three A-stars plus extra-curriculars - but has been rejected by their top three unis and is now going to take a gap year and try again. So do we assume Durham chose the former on the basis of the PS? Or what? I agree with @TizerorFizz the lack of clarity is not good enough and it's all very well to say students should spread the net more widely but how do you explain that to someone with perfect grade predictions who might understandably think they deserved a place at one of the (rightly or wrongly perceived) "top" unis?

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KittyMcKitty · 24/04/2023 10:13

@Rejects i would say that the one who was offered had a better ps and / or reference from the school - perfect grades isn’t the only thing that universities are looking for.

bguthb90 · 24/04/2023 11:29

@Rejects If Durham have not offered on the basis of Personal Statement, they will have given that as the reason on the UCAS form - one my DS's friends got that.

http://durham.ac.uk/unsuccessful is useful for those who didn't get an offer, elaborating on the one-liner reasons given in the UCAS hub.

Rejects · 24/04/2023 11:54

I'm not going to ask right now what the reason was in this case but I think most people get "high levels of competition", which is completely generic.

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WEEonline · 24/04/2023 12:14

Rejects · 24/04/2023 09:37

Good to hear your ds is almost settled @Netcam, really good luck to him.

On the Durham thing - so in ds's year one child's been accepted, one rejected for the same subject. The latter has much better A Level predictions of three A-stars plus extra-curriculars - but has been rejected by their top three unis and is now going to take a gap year and try again. So do we assume Durham chose the former on the basis of the PS? Or what? I agree with @TizerorFizz the lack of clarity is not good enough and it's all very well to say students should spread the net more widely but how do you explain that to someone with perfect grade predictions who might understandably think they deserved a place at one of the (rightly or wrongly perceived) "top" unis?

Were they (3Astars + extras) relevant subjects for the course in question?

TizerorFizz · 24/04/2023 12:23

@Rejects
As you can see from the discussion above, one poster insists it’s predicted grades ONLY for economics at Durham. I think this cannot possibly take into account all the other factors considered in deciding who to take and weighting’s given. If students with top predicted grades are rejected, how did they decide? There must be other factors and the rhetoric at open days is not accurate for courses with a lot of very well qualified applicants. Does UCAS really say why a student was rejected in detail? This could be GCSEs, PS, reference etc. How does anyone know what to improve upon in reality? It’s a gamble next year too.

TizerorFizz · 24/04/2023 12:29

Also, are Durham preferring students with FM? But not saying so? The Economics web page has lots of course info but nothing on how decisions are made. It’s hard to find! Bristol, for example, is much easier to navigate and understand.

bguthb90 · 24/04/2023 12:30

From the Durham TSR thread, a number of people cited Qualifications not as strong as other Candidates and Personal Statement not as strong as other candidates as reasons for not getting an offer.

I agree that High Level of Competition is generic and feels a little like "you've been unlucky in this week's lottery". It's what my DS received and the cynical bitter me says that this is used when they've hit their quotas for non-contextual UK applicants vs contextual and/or international. I could be (and probably am) totally mistaken of course.

However, whatever the reason behind an individual being deemed marginally less competitive (if it's not qualifications of personal statement related), I understand that they can't provide the explicit details of what that reason was, as its probably unique to that individual and the small subset they were being compared against.

In terms of your DS's friend - if he/she has been rejected by their top 3 universities, hopefully, they can request feedback from all 3 to see if there is a common reason as to why that was

lovefizzycolabottles · 24/04/2023 13:08

@TizerorFizz i don't think so as we know of Durham rejections with four A stars predicted (inc FM) and a load of other supra-curricular stuff. I'm with you @bguthb90 - I wouldn't be surprised if that's what's going on. Some interesting Freedom of Information requests could be done I think on offer rates for similarly qualified candidates split by international/non-international etc. Would be interesting to see this by course too. I suspect that the percentage of internationals (over 50% at UCL overall for example) is very very different between courses - so how many candidates are competing for a tiny pool of non-international, non-contextual places for certain courses? If that is how it works? I have no idea but if so, I think unis need to be honest.

Really hope that next years candidates/parents have been reading this thread to help inform their choices and very importantly what questions to ask of unis at open days in terms of how applicants are accessed by course - to also seek out admission statistics info, and the timings of decisions (getting rejections a few weeks before the A levels start is far from ideal).

Rejects · 24/04/2023 13:24

the cynicalbitter me says that this is used when they've hit their quotas for non-contextual UK applicants vs contextual and/or international. I could be (and probably am) totally mistaken of course.

I am pretty sure that's what's going on and wish they would be upfront about it.

Yes *TizerorFizz How does anyone know what to improve on? This particular kid is saying they'll take a year out but what if it happened again with the top grades in hand. They're such a nice and bright kid with all the super-curriculars you could hope for as well as stellar grades and they are very far from alone.

As you say @lovefizzycolabottles - this kick in the teeth so late in the day is horribly demoralising and I hope others are learning from it.

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bguthb90 · 24/04/2023 13:51

Agreed - Durham have been very late with their responses.

But not as late as Edinburgh, who a lot of applicants are still waiting to hear from.

At this point, I'm almost inclined to think their approach is to wait and see how their application pool reduces via voluntary withdrawals, before commencing offers

GoldenRuby · 24/04/2023 14:16

Durham do publish - albeit some while after the event - the break down of Home vs International places awarded for each course. For example in 20/21 they made 250 offers for A&F to home applicants, and 610 offers to Overseas/EU applicants. For Law it was 445 (H) vs 500 (O/E), whereas History was 670 (H) vs 135 (O/E).

WombatChocolate · 24/04/2023 14:55

I’ve definitely seen a FOI request answer about how many applicants per place for different courses from international, contextual and standard UK applicants. Can’t remember if it was on MN or TSR. It was striking how almost all contextual applicants got offers and a high proportion of internationals compared to UK standard….more striking in some subjects than others.

I’d assume they are essentially running different links of applicants….people get out into the international, contextual or standard applicant piles. Perhaps they then offer X amount of places to each list….not equal numbers. It could be that the candidates are ranked, or put into broad categories of something like top standard, middle standard etc. And then they could be ranked within that or groups could be randomised for offers.

Certainly, it seemed the flurry of offers in last weeks were probably related to the numbers firming or not firming them. As people firmed other unis, I guess they could then make further offers….perhaps again looking at ratios of international, contextual etc and working down different lists as people from different categories essentially turned them down??

What is odd is when students who have absolutely top GCSEs and A Level predictions, and you know their PS will have been v relevant and chock full of super-curriculars that were well related to their course choice, who then get turned down whilst someone else from the same school with a lesser profile and no other reasons to get an offer based on different factors, does get an offer. It’s for that reason that somewhere along the line, I do think there might be an element of randomising students, even if it’s only happening within groups which have already been broadly categorised.

As for the reasons given for rejection….I think it’s pretty spurious. Several on TSR report having got Oxbridge offers and top grades and strong PS, and have then been given the feedback of PS not strong enough, or grades not good enough.

Criteria being used might even be changing as time progresses and they can become a bit more generous or less generous in offering places to certain groups.

I think it’s not 100% scientific and explainable. The cards are kept tightly to Durham’s chest, because they don’t want to be challenged on who gets offers and an element of mystery allows them to remain flexible and respond to what is essentially a demand and supply situation for various sub-sections of the market for each subject, where constraints to such as needing international funding, needing to boost contextual offers to widen access, and who knows what other constraints are at play, that mean it’s not as simple as
the GCSE grades, A Level predictions and PS.

It’s a bitter pill bough if you’re rejected when you had a top academic record and you know the PS and reference were jam-packed with relevant evidence of wider engagement with the subject.

GoldenRuby · 24/04/2023 15:48

Durham's explanation of what they are looking for in a PS includes evidence that you balance tasks outside of studies, as this demonstrates the multi-tasking skills they are looking for. This doesn't align perfectly with the advice typically given about Oxbridge PS (ie not to include any of this), so I can see how based on their published criteria Durham might reject someone with a stellar grade profile who doesn't tick the other boxes.

lovefizzycolabottles · 24/04/2023 16:20

@WombatChocolate i think i found that FOI request for economics admission statistics at Durham - this was for 2021/22 cycle (dated 7 Jan 2023) - wonder what it will be for this year?

If I am reading it right...
Home applicants (not eligible for contextual offer) = 430, offers = 70. Offer rate of 16%.
Contextual applicants =85, offers = 80. Offer rate of 94%
International applicants = 470, offers = 335 offer rate of 71%

WombatChocolate · 24/04/2023 16:25

lovefizzycolabottles · 24/04/2023 16:20

@WombatChocolate i think i found that FOI request for economics admission statistics at Durham - this was for 2021/22 cycle (dated 7 Jan 2023) - wonder what it will be for this year?

If I am reading it right...
Home applicants (not eligible for contextual offer) = 430, offers = 70. Offer rate of 16%.
Contextual applicants =85, offers = 80. Offer rate of 94%
International applicants = 470, offers = 335 offer rate of 71%

Yes, that’s it. There’s a big difference in acceptance rates. However, most places will still be going to standard offer holders.

WombatChocolate · 24/04/2023 16:26

OOps, sorry,I see that actually more contextual offers were made and international offers than standard UK applicant offers. Not encouraging for anyone who is a standard applicant. I imagine Economics figures are more extreme than for some subjects.

TizerorFizz · 24/04/2023 16:26

@GoldenRuby One wonders how any of that stacks up against the “predicted grades being the only deciding factor”
as witnessed by PP who attended the Open Day for Economics? It simply is not open or fair. Why not say what is taken into account in tie breaker situations? I think Oxbridge do not say don’t write a sentence about your other achievements! My DD did.

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