Uni threat to terminate student's studies

[Allshallbewell2021]

My ds has just succeeded in his appeal against a termination of studies based on non attendance. He had no idea that lectures were mandatory. His attendance is lower than the bar they expect but the dept dealing with him have not been explicit about either of these figures.
His work is up to date.
He did not know lectures were mandatory -lecturers said they were 'important'.
He has had a large number of challenges which have effected his attendance.
I can't the brutality of the process. The stasi like language.
The lack of seeing young people (particularly the Covid uni cohort) as uniquely unlucky in uni terms.
The lack of support for someone struggling
The treatment of a student in a way which seems like they've committed real crimes not just misunderstood the rules.
When did the unis become such vicious places? I was so naive. I am horrified by their attitude. It seems like how you'd treat someone guilty of a serious crime.

Exactly. 2002-2007, 4 yr degree with a kid way year out. Lectures definitely not mandatory. Tutorials and seminars were, you were more likely to do group projects there and have your input required. If you kissed a lecture, you just got the notes and made sure you did the reading ti support any coursework requirements.

It’s highly likely to be different from one setting to another. However, important is not the same as mandatory, and if they don’t use clear language/be is up to date with work, I can’t see the problem.

I mean, if he was at uni during covid he's likely in his third year. Next year he may be in work, and if he makes a mistake of this kind at work it would have very serious consequences...

There comes a point where "making allowances for young people" has to stop. More and more, schools basically try to ensure students do not fail ever, but often some kind of reality kicks in at uni. But if not, it definitely will at work.

As others have said, it's not in the uni's interest to kick someone out who is succeeding and doing well. Whatever he's missed, they feel it's important for a reason. And yes, to get to the point of terminating his studies, there must have been problems for a significant period of time.

Are you willing and able to support him financially as an adult? If so, then crack on, but otherwise he needs to learn to take responsibility sharpish.

Oh, and when I went to uni lectures were not compulsory but on my pgce they were. Different unis, different courses, different rules.

All unis can set whatever rules they like as long as they are legal.

He's had multiple chances to get it right and has finally told you (and university) part of the truth when formal letters arrived.

You both need a reality check.

Technically he is currently being given/loaned money by the government to attend university and isn’t actually attending. Yes, he supposedly will have to pay it back but doesn’t Martin Lewis say most students don’t full amount back? So there is an obligation to make sure he isn’t getting tax payers money if he isn’t entitled to it I guess.

And also lack of attendance can affect future loan instalment payments, I’ve had students with that happen to them before. So he needs to be aware of that.

My brother is a senior lecturer. He has had many students over his long career who have come from chaotic homes, homes where the young person is a carer or a parent is absent due to prison. He has supported those students and they have worked hard and achieved.There is no struggle that your son could be having that hasn't been seen over and over again. He has also taught a lot of entitled, lazy buggers who don't take it seriously. He had to get rid of one of his students for masturbating to porn in the main library( the WiFi was better than in his flat apparently). There is a huge process that has to be followed before someone can be removed.

He will have been sent emails pointing out the attendance requirement- this is a requirement before a student can be taken to the panel. They really don't like to remove people unless it is deemed there is no hope. At my uni it is 3 official warning emails interspersed with less formal inquiries as to if the student is ok and if they need any support. Then a meeting or chat before they can be taken to the attendance Board. Then usually they are only removed if there has been no engagement, and it very rarely happens in semester 1-- usually they get another warning and if they continue not to attend then they might be removed in semester 2.

Good that they reversed it though, now he can start afresh.

Lectures were definitely mandatory at my university. And there were no "seminars". Just classes and they were all mandatory. If you missed three classes, you got hauled in for disciplinary. Idk how you could expect to learn anything and pass the course if you don't attend the classes??

You sound bizarrely defensive of an adult who is not bothering to attend half his lectures. Does he have SEN? What does he need support with? Has he asked the uni for more support?

If you were always this defensive of his behaviour as he has grown up, always making excuses for him, then it's not surprising that he thinks he can just do what he likes and get away with it. DS has SEN and no way would I be making excuses for him if he didn't attend half his lectures because he only wanted to attend the ones he saw as important.

Maybe students would struggle less if they turned up more? I don't think lectures do them to listen to the sound of their own voices

He knows now so he shows up

His work is up to date but is it up to standard? Has he passed his units?

Also the young do make mistakes

But this wasn't A mistake, it was A SERIES of ignoring email, phone calls, letters, arranged engagement emails...

Off-rolling a student is a real PITA and not done lightly nor without lots of hard work by attendance teams.

Yes young people do make mistakes ( as do older people, its a human thing ) but if they don't learn from them, and accept responsibility for them, they tend to keep repeating them.

Early 90s as well. Mix of mandatory and optional. I have also been a lecturer. Policy varied by course and was made very clear at the beginning of each session.

Your son is spinning you a yarn. A university jumps through hoop after hoop before getting to the stage of withdrawing a student. For the university to even bother with a letter there has to be significant non engagement. He will have been sent a number of emails and ignored them - only waking up when the threat of withdrawal occurred. The threat of withdrawal usually only occurs when the course team reach a decision that a student would be very unlikely to successfully complete the year. For a student to be kicked out for non attendance there would have to be at least a few months of zero attendance, no response to emails, no engagement with the online learning environment, no engagement with group work colleagues (student will often be assigned a group assignment in their first semester to help them make friends). I would be very surprised if his coursework was all up to date. Withdrawing a student is very much a last resort and only invoked when all other avenues of engagement have failed. Hopefully your son has learned his lesson and seeks support to enable him to attend and engage.

They haven't treated him like a criminal.
He didn't attend lectures which are mandatory. This has gone on to such an extent that the uni decided to terminate studies on the grounds of non-attendance. I wonder if seminars and other events were missed too and it wasn't just the lectures.
He will have received plenty of warnings about this before the termination notice.
If he had issues which affected his attendance he should have talked to his personal tutor about them and got help and support where necessary.

He has appealed and won so I really don't know what your issue is.

One term when I went in twice. Once to pick up my grant cheque (those were the days), and then to hand in my dissertation. Our lectures were not compulsory, but it was suggested that one should attend seminars, that said, no expulsions for non attendance. Although one student was threatened with expulsion for having a part-time day job. Fifty years ago, times have changed.

In my DS's uni they had to swipe into their lectures with their student card. He did miss some lectures in one semester ( a 9am unit!) and immediately this triggered an email warning him that he needs to improve his attendance and giving him information what to do if his attendance was due to any issues. I think it's unlikely that your son has got to this stage without interim stages. He has probably just not told you about them.

You're not helping him.

Attendance policy will be in module outlines, course handbooks, university policy on website....

He'll have had multiple emails, invites to discuss with tutors, senior staff, student support

I've been a senior lecturer for many years. It is rare that I have seen a student not attend and do well. It is rare that it gets to the kicking out stage and sometimes students appeal and continue. Of those that do, the majority continue to fall into old patterns.

All of them will be offered help and support. Many of them won't take it.

Many of those have genuine issues as perhaps does your son. Whether or not that means they're in a position to cope with their course is another thing.

Short of just giving them a degree for no work, there's not much we can do for students like this.

Honestly, 9 times out of 10, it's better for student to get kicked out if they don't like their course and theyve missed so much. They'll just carry on racking up fees and might just delay the inevitable.

when i was at college, there was no way of lecturers knowing exactly who was there ans who not.
not that some of them would have noticed if the room was empty.
they'd peer at a small notebook, as if they'd forgotten their glasses, ramble on, occasionally glance up at the ceiling, rarely scribble a word on the blackboard.
but we had lots of essays to write, which had to be read aloud at weekly tutorials in small groups.
i found that difficult.
OP did your son not have a tutor, who should have told him he was falling behind ?

One uni I went to gave you extra marks for attendance. The other it was not enforced to attend I don't think.

The rules for the first uni were set out on a few sheets of paper. As he's at uni, presumably he can read that

As PP's said, they will've sent a lot of letters warning/reminding him, too.

Did he get emails warning him about his attendance? Are you saying he ignored them because they might have been automatically generated? If so, I hope he's discovered that that is definitely not a good idea.

I assume he is going to attend fully from now on unless he has a medical reason for not doing so? If so, the problem should be resolved?

I’ve never heard of registers being taken at lectures.

All students have security cards that they tap against a sensor in lecture theatres at DD’s university.

lack of in-person lectures during covid surely means that attending them now is a great idea!

DD had F2F teaching in her third year and said that attending lectures in person was much better than just watching them online.

There were probably fewer than three lectures a term, and even fewer as time went on.

It depends on the subject. DD studied a STEM degree and often had three lectures a day.

Your language sounds really defensive of your son and aggressive towards the Uni. Probably not helpful.

Your son is an adult. You have surely had conversations with him about the lectures he's attending and he's told you if he skipped any?

It's totally on him to know how many lectures he needs to attend. That is kind of the point of uni.

I wonder if this is the uni's first contact with him about this?