DS wants to drop out of Oxford - and it's largely my fault

[Distressedstudent]

My DS is a fresher at Oxford and not enjoying it one bit - the intensive work load, the lack of contact hours, the general 'nerdiness' of it. He had wanted to go to York but, as he was predicted (and got) 4 x A star, we urged him to apply to Oxford (where we went - he had no intention of applying) and then, when he got his offer, to firm it. He very reluctantly agreed after talking to his teachers who said he'd be nuts to turn down Oxford, even though his heart was set on York.

He sees his friends from school having a blast at other universities whereas he has his nose to the grind at Oxford. He is now planning to see his Director of Studies and to see if York will take him from September (to read the same humanities course). He is not interested in my advice as DH and I 'got it wrong' and gave him 'duff advice' (his words).

I am not sure if I am up to replying to anyone kind enough to offer their thoughts because I feel so miserable/disappointed/guilty on his behalf.

*from not form

Besides medical school and Oxbridge?

Quite a few do. Manchester interview for biomedical sciences. Most healthcare degrees do. DD has an interview for a postgrad degree (healthcare related).

Maybe the quantity and quality of information available to assess varies by subject? With 2021 medicine applications Oxford disregarded GCSEs as they were considered unreliable GAGs, school approaches to predicted A Level grades are hugely variable, the administration of the BMAT admissions exam was bungled by the third party provider and results were tainted . So by default it would seem that the only real basis for selection could have been remote interviews.

Just thinking about outstanding candidates - I know of someone who was offer a place at vet school on the basis of a chat at open day (not Oxbridge but still very competitive uni and course). She had changed her mind about what she wanted to study so cancelled her ucas applications and was going to take a year out and apply for Vet Medicine . However, she had so impressed the tutors at an open day that the university phoned up her school on results day and offered her a place. She never even applied. I guess some people just shine.

For those in the know at Oxbridge. How much do you look at student outcomes and compare that to their admissions data?

The use of remote interviews, though convenient and removes unnecessary expense and time away from school for unsuccessful candidates, does also remove an opportunity for potential students to assess how they feel it would be a fit for them.

For those in the know at Oxbridge. How much do you look at student outcomes and compare that to their admissions data?

Oxford's central admissions office is gradually working it's way through the courses, at least the larger ones, and carrying out admissions process reviews, including a detailed statistical analysis. The numbers are too small to do this at a college level. The ability to carry out a good analysis is severely limited by truncation i.e., we don't see the outcomes of the people we don't take!

The use of remote interviews, though convenient and removes unnecessary expense and time away from school for unsuccessful candidates, does also remove an opportunity for potential students to assess how they feel it would be a fit for them.

They are gradually being replaced by offer holder days, in line with the rest of the sector. Not much point deciding whether you fit in before you get an offer! Of course we have open days too.

Sorry about the stray apostrophe. I am an Oxford academic really, I promise!

Central Admissions and sometimes individual faculties do periodic reviews of the correlations of various admissions scorings, pre-interview assessments etc. on eventual degree results. Both university and individual colleges are continually doing “cohort tracking” of each year group as they process through the degree, too. As for those we don’t admit — well, data protection means that would be pretty hard for us to do, I guess. I’m sure UCAS could and possibly do something with the data they have, but I don’t know.

On interviews - there’s huge debate about this at the moment. As a general trend, scientists like the remote interviews and often are keen to do away with the interview all together (interviewing takes time away from their precious research and lab time 😂) In arts/humanities/social sciences, it’s usually the opposite — those disciplines are often fiercely wedded to the interview process, often because the teaching is so much more discursive and small group based. In general — the scientists tended to love the remote interviews and want to stay remote. The arts/hum/social science people did not, and generally want to return to in-person interviews.

But one of the big factors is cost. Interviews were moved online b/c of Covid, but now lots of Bursars, and central admissions, want them to stay online, because they found it made the whole process so much cheaper to run. (This was also why many of the pre-interview assessments were recently scrapped - many of them worked well but cost a lot.) Lots of dissent from academics, however, and many applicants, who actually liked going to the interview and getting a sense of the place. (In our latest data applicants were split roughly 60% pro in-person interview vs 40% pro online interview.) It’s all very much up in the air with consultations happening right now on the interview process, so who knows what the outcome will be.

Please keep them on line!
It's an overnight stay for us, four hours just to drop off/pick up from a train station. Oxford hotel rooms are really expensive which piles the pressure on.
DD did a subject day and now an offer holders.

Our school gets about a dozen in each year. They’re all high achievers but often the ones who receive offers from Oxford and Cambridge are not who we would consider to have the highest ability (exceptions in maths, science) and sometimes are not even top set. It’s often the hardest working students who love their subject and do lots of reading who get selected. These students will be suited to the intense teaching and short terms as will work hard and participate. The pre admission tests can also be gamed through practice. The brightest boy I’ve ever taught was rejected this year, but he’s inconsistent and wings it.

If that story is true, I find that very insulting to thousands of students who would’ve applied that place through the correct procedures, and in good faith – what could you possibly say or do at an open day that would impress so much that you would beat all the other contenders without even putting in an application?

If that story is true, I find that very insulting to thousands of students who would’ve applied that place through the correct procedures, and in good faith – what could you possibly say or do at an open day that would impress so much that you would beat all the other contenders without even putting in an application?. Absolutely. Very wrong (if true).

It sounds vanished unlikely to me.

It's not true. V v untrue. Vet schools don't just offer on a chat. Some people ...

Oh yeah that's a likely story!

Bet she'd done none of the WEs either - didn't have to get references for all the WEs she'd never done...

Of COURSE they gave her an offer without her even applying.

Here's a reality check: one of my charges this year applied to vet school already holding a full degree in human medicine and two years of hospital practice behind her. Even she had to go through the entire selection process and provide documents to evidence all her many large and small animal work experiences. There was never any expectation that this would be waived. It's an essential part of figuring out whether you are up to the demands of being a vet.

Honestly, this thread has now attracted two fantasists. First the brother who got an offer from both Oxford and Cambridge in the same year, for NatSci, and now this vet prodigy.😂

I've been reading the v sensible replies on here to the OP, and I'm v sure her DS will be v happy and successful at York. Oxbridge teaching style is not for everyone.
Love the idea that getting into vet med just needs a bit of good chat. As already stated it needs a lot of previous work experience, many many different forms for each Uni, the odd SJT test and some fairly rigorous interviews. Not just a good talk with some random tutor 😂.
Just shows you can't believe stuff on the internet.

As a vet school I would be cautious of giving a place to someone who had taken a place from a student, who may have gone on to a productive full career as a doctor, and walked away as soon as they were qualified. How could I be sure they wouldn’t do the same with vet medicine?

I don’t know much about the candidate; it was the head of the school who told me about a week after she was offered the place (the offer went via the school). However, I do know the family ran a large livestock farm and she was very involved with horses. So not so much ‘work experience’ as years of actually working with animals and dealing with veterinary issues. Exams were a given. In terms of procedure, I am guessing it went through clearing given when the offer was made.

I think young people should be allowed to change career pathways without being damned purely for the change.

I'm personally very grateful that the young student midwife who responded to my request for intervention during the birth of DC7 had just switched from her fourth year of vet med because DC7 would certainly have died had the much older fully qualified nurse been left to it ('No, all good, you've done this before - you know what you're doing' Exit stage left).

These stories about admissions often have a seed of truth and then get distorted as they get passed on.

Honestly, this thread has now attracted two fantasists. First the brother who got an offer from both Oxford and Cambridge in the same year, for NatSci, and now this vet prodigy.😂

Haha! Read your post and thought I must mention the NatSci brother with the two offers but by the time I'd got to the end of your post I saw you'd done it for me!

@Shelefttheweb vet med has not been in clearing, unless it's Notts April cohort, for the last 10 years. And they don't call you !
It's not as simple as calling up on results day. I don't think you've been given the real story. Farmer or not, this did not happen as told.

Given vet involvement in farms, marts, horses, county shows, horse shows and events, I suspect It is likely the tutors had heard of her family’s farm and their herd/flocks and they would have known a lot of people in common.

It was a few years ago. But I said, I suspect procedurally it went through clearing, not that the vet school was in clearing.

A "family farm" is actually not counted as one of your WEs. In other words, if you try to claim that you have LA experience because your uncle has a dairy farm, you can try again - that particular "experience" does not count as one of your formal work experiences. Uncles, parents, best-friend's aunt - their farms do not count as one of your work experiences.

I'll give you this much, @Shelefttheweb - I did ask myself whether vet schools might think twice about my medicine-graduate charge, but she hardly "walked away as soon as she was qualified"... if you read my post, she went on to do two years in a hospital setting. Plus, the number of animal work experiences she had clocked up was well, well in excess of the number they expect. If you don't have what it takes to be a vet, you would have stopped at the fourth internship, or fifth, I think. She had more than ten.

And finally, the idea that knowing people in common would have swung it for your got-an-offer-without-applying prodigy... that's 🙄it's arguably the opposite!

I'm glad you're not actually hopping on here giving "useful" advice when someone is asking about how to get into vet school, shelefttheweb.

It is a bit of a side track re. the vet offer etc. unlike some countries the UK's university entrance systems are fairly fair; not perfect but for English applicants most people are treated on a fair basis. I think most of us trust the system. It will also be better in the next few years as we move from TAGs to 2023 real A level results and probably back to the 2019 "normal" in terms of percentage of A stars. (2022 was an interim year as results went down back to normal but not as far down as normal).

On whether to drop out that is up to the individual person but they should consider all the pros and cons and student loan implications. I would not have been happy if any of my 5 dropped out without good cause but if they had a good plan or it was a matter of life and death or whatever they are adults and it is their choice.

I don't think there is a cult of Oxbridge. Different groups of people and cultures in the UK think particular things are good. I think our family values education quite highly but that does not mean everyone has to do so - I am glad in the Uk was have loads of different people and one choice of a life is not necessarily better than another just because it involves lots of exams.

I agree this is a side track but I hate misinformation being allowed to stand. It doesn't matter if you are the head of RCVS's kid, you will not getting into Uni to do vet med without following the application process. There are 14 applicants per place so the idea they'd bother calling some random they met at an open day is ludicrous. And only April Notts vet med has been in clearing. For about 10 minutes.
The student may have applied through clearing and jumped the many hoops Notts require to get one of those 4 places. But they'd need more work experience than being on the family farm (as stated, this doesn't count at all).
Loads of students at vet school are farming families, some v v wealthy. They still have to go through the process, sometimes more than once to get in. It's not who you know anymore, but how hard you work.