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Medicine - 2024 Entry

1000 replies

LaMereDuChat · 24/12/2022 13:48

Just thought I'd start a thread for anyone else who feels like me... Dd has just announced that she'd really like to apply for medicine. It seems pretty much impossible to get into and I'm dreading the process as the odds are stacked against her - private schooled, grades a bit iffy as she's chosen a language as an A-Level and it's hard, though she loves it. Anyone want to join the pity party 😬?

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Undecidedat46 · 25/08/2023 08:09

@speedyhedgehog very sensible. Last thing you want is to get your heart set on somewhere that your stats don’t support an interview for. If you have any experience of QUB, Leicester or Lancaster, I’m all ears, as they seem to be likely options for my DD so far😊Still shortlisting for the 4th, and BMAT option of Lancaster is subject to change, depending on how prep goes!

ipredictariot5 · 25/08/2023 09:13

Wondered if anyone can advise how hard it is to get into Glasgow as an English student? DD has a brother there and keen to give it a go but don’t want to waste an application
first time med student application here although me and her dad are both doctors. 4th child after three others said no way !

ipredictariot5 · 25/08/2023 09:15

UCAT next week also A levels are Chem Maths and PE - any schools specify they have to have Biology ?

NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 25/08/2023 11:52

@BlueMum16

What was you going to say about PBL that I can share with him? TIA

Whenever I see TIA I think transient ischaemic attack ("mini-stroke"). I don't want to induce one of those.

The thing about problem-based learning (PBL) is that I think a lot of students are unnecessarily frightened of it. I have met sixth-formers through outreach work who would be brilliant at PBL but have got spooked by the idea that nobody will give them any guidance on what to learn, which absolutely isn't the case.
Two points before I get onto PBL specifically. First, there are no purely problem-based medicine degree programmes in the UK, just as there are no purely lecture-based ones. All programmes use a variety of learning methods, including a combination of whole-year, large-group and small-group activities, and all involve some amount of self-directed learning. There isn't a medicine degree programme where you will just be told everything you need to know and then asked to regurgitate it in exams. (There shouldn't be any degree programmes in any subject that do this, but I have my doubts about a few.)

Secondly, students often find themselves putting medicine degrees under three arbitrary and misleading headings. These are "traditional", "integrated" and "problem-based". These are absolutely useless as headings. To quote the great philosopher Humpty Dumpty, "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less" (Through the Looking Glass, chapter 6). With the exception of "freedom", there is no word of which this is more true than "integrated". All medicine degrees are integrated in some way. Most are integrated in terms of academic content, i.e. students learn all the various aspects of a body system or disease process together, rather than having separate courses in anatomy, physiology, pathology, etc., and most are integrated in terms of teaching clinical & communication skills alongside other learning so that students' understanding of medical science is applied in clinical contexts and therefore reinforced. There is variation, and some courses have a lot of the first kind of integration and not much of the second, but there is no course that could not be described as integrated. A predominantly lecture-based course and a PBL-heavy course can be equally integrated, and no more or less integrated than one that a student hasn't identified as "lecture-based" or "problem-based".

Coming back to PBL. This is one form of small-group, self-directed learning. There are others but, again, the names universities give to things don't necessarily give you a very clear idea of what they are. The case-based learning (CBL) used at Bristol and Nottingham, for example, is not something that I would recognise as CBL from descriptions in education research journals. But it's learning based on cases, so it's a reasonable term to use. What it actually is is infinitely more important that what it's called, but there's a lot more work involved in finding this out.

Some sixth-formers have the impression that PBL means reading a case, deciding as a group of students what you need to learn to understand it, going out and trying to find the information, then feeding it back to the rest of the group and hoping that you've got it right. In its purest form, that is perhaps a fair description of the process (apart from the word "hoping"); but it's not what happens on medicine degree courses. The tutor does guide groups: they aren't there to teach but they are there to guide, i.e. to ask questions that they think you haven't addressed and to make sure you don't ignore important topics that you need to learn about to understand the case fully. You do have other learning (including lectures <gasp>) going on alongside the PBL which will highlight important areas you should be researching and will, in some cases, answer some of the questions you've set yourselves. And you do have people you can ask if you're not sure whether you've understood something fully or if - as is often the case in anything medical - you've found different sources that give contradictory answers. A very, very major part of medicine is dealing with uncertainty, and it's something you need to work on from the start.

The two huge benefits of PBL (and there are drawbacks, which I'll come back to) are (a) developing team-working skills, which you can't practise medicine safely or effectively without, and (b) knowing from the outset why you need to learn something. Learning something because someone has told you to, perhaps with a vague promise that it will be important some time in the future, is frustrating and pushes people into a passive learning mode where they just try to stuff their memories with things they can recite in an exam. Learning something to answer a question relating to a person's illness or treatment is more gratifying and, because you are doing it for several questions relating to the case simultaneously, is more likely to be retained because you are building up a picture the illness, how it affects people and how it can be managed rather than just memorising things for the sake of it.

Put yourself in the position of a doctor 10 years in the future facing a new patient. That patient isn't going to be carrying a sign saying "I have an acquired metabolic disorder". You are only going to find that out by asking them questions, examining them, looking at their past history, ordering appropriate investigations and interpreting them. All the way through this you will be asking yourselves questions to work out what your observations tell you and what you need to do next. PBL and other self-directed learning methods are designed to develop this skill (or habit, if you prefer).

The drawbacks are not usually to do with whether students miss important topics. They are more often to do with a lack of certainty over the depth in which to learn things. Once you go into a reasonably complex medical question, it's unlikely that you will ever find a complete, unambiguous answer to it. There is always more you can find out, and understanding of most conditions and their management is perpetually changing. You have to work out when to stop because you have so many other things to learn, too. Obviously, some students are lazy and will do the bare minimum. For many, though, the problem is more likely to be anxiety arising from knowing that there is more to find out and not being sure whether what you have is enough. This isn't usually a question that has a simple answer, and students therefore find themselves asking "Will this be in the exam?", which isn't a helpful approach. And, of course, you are dependent on the other students in your group. But you will always be dependent on your colleagues: again, you need to start developing effective ways of working with them from day 1.

So, thinking about sixth-formers, what should they be taking into consideration? If they already engage in some social learning - e.g. forming study groups, sitting down with a friend to work on a homework task or just talking about things they're studying - they are quite likely to find PBL suits them. If they are bored of being taught - i.e. just sitting & listening while someone else talks - they are quite likely to find PBL is more interesting. In my experience, the only students for whom PBL absolutely doesn't work are the ones who want to learn stuff for themselves only, don't want anybody else to benefit from their efforts and don't trust their colleagues. Those aren't really people we think will be effective or happy doctors anyway. Some students who are especially anxious might also find PBL more difficult than more teacher-directed learning methods, but that kind of anxiety really needs to be worked on at the beginning of medical school because it will become a significant problem later on.

NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 25/08/2023 11:53

@ipredictariot5

any schools specify they have to have Biology ?

Yes, several. Please see https://www.medschools.ac.uk/media/3060/uk-medical-school-entry-requirements-2024-entry.pdf.

https://www.medschools.ac.uk/media/3060/uk-medical-school-entry-requirements-2024-entry.pdf

Stranger3 · 25/08/2023 12:44

@Postapocalypticcowgirl thank you so much for your advice. It makes a lot of sense. HAPPILY this is not a dilemma any more as she got what she needed (got the 8s in all her sciences) and so is going to do Eng lit, Bio and Chem as planned. She was vaguely wondering about adding on Physics too so just thinking about a 4th A level vs an EPQ. The new school prefer them to do 3 plus the EPQ I think.
Huge relief this is all fine.GCSE wise she has 2 9s, 4 8s, 2 7s, a 6 (Latin) and a 5 (music :)- she did try). So hopefully while these may not be a massive boost to her application they wont be a hindrance either

ipredictariot5 · 26/08/2023 13:01

Thank you @NoNotHimTheOtherOne
Late decision this summer DD wants to go for medicine and she's doing Chemistry Maths and PE so thanks so much for that document. Luckily there are four she is happy with though have cancelled Leeds and HY open days!
UCAT next week so will see from there as they all seem high scores needed.
@mumsneedwine - hello again - our paths crossed when our DDs were applying to vet medicine - mine is going into 4th year now in Liverpool and has passed all exams so far :)

BlueMum16 · 26/08/2023 15:54

Thank you for the really clear reply. Makes completed sense and will share with DS

mumsneedwine · 26/08/2023 17:13

@ipredictariot5 hello !! Mine ended up at Bristol and about to start 4th year. The amount of EMS they have to do is bonkers !

mumsneedwine · 26/08/2023 17:36

@ipredictariot5 and Med schools like PE. It's v biology heavy.

Needmoresleep · 27/08/2023 10:28

NoNotHimTheOtherOne's post is excellent.

DD has just finished at Bristol. She was lucky enough to get a place at the point when they did not require either BMAT or UCAT. She is dyslexic, which probably explains her need to swerve med schools that focussed on aptitude tests, and was quite wary of PBL. However she deferred for a year and arrived to find Bristol had moved to a new syllabus and that she was on the first year of a PBL course.

It probably suited her, but then she was used to being busy (county sports training and a school leadership position on top of A levels), has a good memory and grasps concepts quickly. She was also happy to put her head down and get stuck in. She soon learned not to worry that workloads were uneven. Two of them completed a project a week before first year exams, as the other six decided to focus on revision. It might have affected their results, but they came away with the learning. Because they moved from topic to topic, so from one teaching lead to another, it was not uncommon for persistent problems (excessive drinking, regular lateness/absence etc) from fellow students not to be addressed. DD thinks that the University has since made adjustments, both because of the different intake caused by the switch from relying on PS/interview to UCAT and because of some of the problems that arose. PBL can be quite tough for those who either prefer to work individually or who find it hard to self manage.

The strengths of DDs training came into play when she intercalated at Imperial, whose medical school seems to offer a more academic approach.

One significant advantage of Bristol is that it allows external intercalation (as long as it does not offer the same course) for most students, whereas many medical schools don't allow it at all or limit it to top performing students, which added to the fact that places were quite competitive meant DD found herself in a pretty high achieving cohort. (List of possible intercalations is here: https://www.intercalate.co.uk/ if your DC has an interest in a specific area of medicine, it is worth looking at scope to intercalate. Intercalation can also provide an escape route for the inevitable minority who realise quite late in the day that medicine is not for them. )

DDs intercalation was within the engineering faculty and involved a lot of group work. It seemed that some of the medic high achievers really struggled with the switch from making individual effort to bolster individual results to working as part of a group. There was quite a mix of appraisal methods which will have helped differentiate the different contributions made by group members. Pleasingly on one project DDs individual marks were bumped up from a 2:1 the group achieved, to a first by scores from her peers. Her experience had taught her there would be a last minute panic so completed her part early and was free to help with last minute gaps and indexing.

As well as engaging with peers, there appeared to be a need to engage with other hospital professionals and patients from quite an early stage. There seems to have been quite a lot of sorting out yourself to, say, shadow a physio, or identify patients willing to allow you to take their bloods. (DDs internship at a cookery school during her gap year came in handy. Top tip is being able to bake for colleagues. Indeed the same skills are being put into play as a new F1.) DD also spent a lot of time coping with hospital/medical school bureaucracy, not fun but given the paperwork before her F1, again a useful professional skill.

In short if you genuinely enjoy medicine and have an ability to work with people and to organise yourself, PBL seems to be a good way to prepare for a professional career.

Ib1234567 · 28/08/2023 07:22

HI ladies, anyone knows last year numbers for Newcastle, I am trying to find interview to offer ratio . Thanks

Notcontent · 29/08/2023 13:24

If your DC has done the UCAT have they now started getting ready for BMAT?

my DD did UCAT last week and now doing focusing on BMAT but she is a bit stressed and tired of it all. Focusing on getting the best possible predicted grades, ucat prep, now BMAT, later (hopefully) interview prep, and then the actual a level exams. Such a hard slog!

mumsneedwine · 29/08/2023 14:27

@Notcontent if they've got a fantastic UCAT and have no desire to go to any of the few BMAT Unis left then it's not free advisable to dump it. The next 9 months will be long and bumpy.

Unexpecteddrivinginstructor · 29/08/2023 15:58

mumsneedwine · 29/08/2023 14:27

@Notcontent if they've got a fantastic UCAT and have no desire to go to any of the few BMAT Unis left then it's not free advisable to dump it. The next 9 months will be long and bumpy.

Yes my dd got a similar score to yours and she got four offers from ucat unis. She decided that bmat did not play to her strengths and she wasn't massively wanting to go to any of those unis so just did the ucat and then moved on to finishing off personal statement and interview prep.

mumsneedwine · 29/08/2023 16:26

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor 😊 Strategy works. DD just worked 7 days straight, including 4 13 hour on calls. All I want to do is hug her right now.

Notcontent · 29/08/2023 17:02

Thank you @mumsneedwine and @Unexpecteddrivinginstructor

It’s certainly something to think about. We are in London so dd is keen to apply to UCL as her “aspirational” choice.

ipredictariot5 · 29/08/2023 17:22

UCAT 2720 SJ1 - does Newcastle Sheffield Glasgow and Liverpool sound OK to apply ?

mumsneedwine · 29/08/2023 18:56

@ipredictariot5 ok, so Southampton might be ok, but will be close and risky. Glasgow v limited spaces for non Scottish students. And Newcastle and Sheffield I'm afraid are v v unlikely - 2,900+ last year. Liverpool should be good.
UEA, Plymouth, St George's and depending on GCSEs others might come into play.
I'm not home at moment but spreadsheet for 2022 is below somewhere - have a look at cut offs as they were mostly higher last year.

mumsneedwine · 29/08/2023 18:57

@ipredictariot5 with SHT1 Notts and Lucile might be good, but need to score GCSEs.

mumsneedwine · 29/08/2023 18:58

@ipredictariot5 here us 2022 stats. Last year every where was higher, except St George's I'm afraid.

Medicine - 2024 Entry
ipredictariot5 · 29/08/2023 19:06

Perfect thanks I will investigate further

SuperSue77 · 29/08/2023 19:26

Out of interest, is there a reason St George’s takes lower UCATs? Is it less popular than other Med schools? Maybe because it’s newer? Or with a London campus is it more expensive? My DD is very early days in her journey, only going in yr10! But she’s interested in not going too far afield and St George’s has a lot of family connection for us with her siblings being born there and both having been operated on there. So I do watch it with interest, especially as I’ve walked past the Med school many times on outpatient visits.

MarchingFrogs · 29/08/2023 19:39

Out of interest, is there a reason St George’s takes lower UCATs? Is it less popular than other Med schools? Maybe because it’s newer?

St George’s Hospital Medical School was originally established in 1733 as part of St George's Hospital at Hyde Park Corner (now the site of The Lanesborough hotel), in central London. The medical school was relocated, together with St George's Hospital to Tooting, South London in 1980

I know that Wikipedia has its moments, but I'm fairly sure that whoever wrote the St George's entry is right here.

The Lanesborough - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lanesborough

SuperSue77 · 29/08/2023 19:59

Wow - I assumed it was newly set up when I first saw it, don’t ask me why. I was pretty out of it when I first visited the hospital, having been sent straight from the 20 week scan at my local hospital to the fetal medicine unit at St George’s because of an anomaly picked up in one of my twins, and that misconception has stayed with me ever since. Thanks for the link - I found the history very interesting and that explains the “Lanesborough Wing”!

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