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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

OR 22 - Edinburgh, Warwick, St A, UCL, Durham, Nottingham, Bath and more

995 replies

Valleyofthedollymix · 28/03/2022 09:16

Following on from the Oxbridge rejects thread but I've got rid of those two words. I for one am interested to know where they all end up and when Durham might finally deign to reject/offer DS...

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fishingeagle · 14/05/2022 11:34

@Phphion that's so interesting and it's good to have some insights from someone who knows whereof they speak. I guess as parents we all have a tendency to think our own DC are special!

Might I ask if you're seeing higher drop out rates than normal?

Shimy · 14/05/2022 12:06

@Geamhradh Hope you don't mind me butting in on your convo upthread with @fishingeagle but that looks like such an interesting list of topics. I wish they did something like that here. The sheer breadth and insight of those topics will certainly make a well-rounded academic! is this part of the entrance into university exam?

Shimy · 14/05/2022 12:15

While the academic profile of the applicant pool in terms of grades is higher, our admissions tutors report that their own perception of the overall quality of the applicants is lower this year than we have seen for quite some time.

I'd be really interested to know how they have guaged this. Outside of the obvious grade inflation affecting the whole cohort, is there something else that is glaringly obvious from the applications you've seen, that show an applicant is weak regardless of the grades presented?

Geamhradh · 14/05/2022 12:34

Shimy · 14/05/2022 12:06

@Geamhradh Hope you don't mind me butting in on your convo upthread with @fishingeagle but that looks like such an interesting list of topics. I wish they did something like that here. The sheer breadth and insight of those topics will certainly make a well-rounded academic! is this part of the entrance into university exam?

Not at all! Butt away!
It is interesting- the kids moan about it, but it really brings all their subjects over the last 5 years together in one ta-da moment. And of course, the commission is internal, so the teachers know the kids, and they are the ones who have prepared the questions. Everything just depends on which envelope is pulled out! Inside the envelope there's a "prompt" of some kind- maybe an extract, or a poem, or a newspaper article, and the kids have to begin the discussion based on that prompt, then the teachers move it forward. The last two years there have been no written exams, so the oral has been really important, but written exams are back this year.
It's part of their "maturita'" exams, so leaving exams, different universities have other tests for various courses. DD bizarrely, to do Politics and IR here would have to sit the Economics test - no, me neither! (This is also putting her off applying) What I do find odd here, is there are kids who will do their exams, have a summer on the beach then in September start thinking about which uni to apply to- for an October start!

diian · 14/05/2022 13:10

What I do find odd here, is there are kids who will do their exams, have a summer on the beach then in September start thinking about which uni to apply to- for an October start!

Sounds perfect! If only the UK did post-A level applications... but that is another thread!

It is so interesting to hear how other countries run their university admissions. I think Germany have a very different system to the UK too.

fishingeagle · 14/05/2022 13:35

@Geamhradh love the idea of a ta-dah moment across disciplines, drawing threads together. I do worry that A levels can be a bit of a silo.

nativityplayreject · 14/05/2022 13:39

@Phphion Yes, Warwick

I alternate between sadness/annoyance and despair over DC1s whole UCAS experience particularly as I am dealing with younger siblings who have taken away the message that you could work as hard as you like but it may be wasted effort as it's become a bit of a lottery at the top end.

They're a brainy bunch who don't have to work that hard to get grade 7's in the first place but with added effort on their part all 8/9s would be well within their grasp (as proved to be the case with DC1). I've pointed out that it'll be a culture shock to them at A Level if they coast through GCSE level whereas DC1 transitioned smoothly and found it simpler not being pulled in so many different directions once they got into Y12.

School's mantra that you should always work to the best of your abilities throughout your school years to maximise your Apprenticeship/Higher Education opportunities no longer rings true with them.

Stockpot · 14/05/2022 14:37

I’ve been chatting with other parents in real life. We all know of children through our social and family connections who have not had any offers despite all 8/9s at gcse and As and A*s predicted at A level. These children attend both state and private, they attend both selective and non selective schools.

I think the proximate cause of this is the effects of 2 years of lockdown. The overhang of excess offers will take years to fully wash through. Add to that the grade inflation, and it’s easy to see how this situation has arisen. Do most schools have the time to read the DC’s personal statements? Their references?

This cohort has had to apply without a single piece of objective, achieved, externally verified data to support them. Their GCSE were teacher predictions based on work the DC did when they only thought it was a mock. The A levels are only predictions. References are subjective and personal statements can sometimes not even be the students own output.

I heard Cambridge wants to start testing children after interview for some subjects, rather than using the tests as a filter for interview. That sounds like madness. The less objective data the admissions teams have to work with, the poorer the cohorts they select will become. (I do think some subjective data for light and shade is useful. But leaping into complete relativism seems like a bad idea.)

fishingeagle · 14/05/2022 16:25

@Stockpot honestly I would have absolutely zero enthusiasm for the prospect of DS being exposed to any more admissions rigmarole from Cambridge.

@Shimy good question. Given there are only so many components to a UCAS application it must presumably be the PS, school reference plus LNAT/BMAT/STEP etc which is informing such conclusions. At this point I am kind of thinking well over to you universities - our DC have done the very best they could within the constraints of what was available to them. If there are gaps in DC's knowledge then get on and plug them.

Igglepigglesblankie · 14/05/2022 17:55

@shimy yes I’d be interested to hear what makes the cohort less impressive. Most universities don’t do entrance exams and I can’t believe the school references would portray them in a poor light - so does it come down to personal statements?

Stockpot · 14/05/2022 18:44

I think we all feel the same @fishingeagle ! I dread the prospect of DD2 coming along in a few years and wanting to have a whirl at it.

Eightytwenty · 14/05/2022 19:17

Anecdotally from a friend who is a lecturer, drop out and attendance at lectures is at an all time low. Not sure if that gives credence to the kids being of lower standards due to grade inflation, or just a sign of poor mental health. Or maybe it’s cause the kids have missed out in social and learning experiences that they find it all overwhelming. Worrying and sad.

fishingeagle · 14/05/2022 22:12

@Eightytwenty that's so sad. I have heard stories of higher drop out rates too.

@Stockpot I'd rather stick a hot fork in my eye.

Phphion · 15/05/2022 03:33

@Shimy For us it is a mixture of personal statement and school reference. It is important to note that we are talking about very high achieving and accomplished students and our assessment of quality is relative to other very high achieving and accomplished cohorts of students. We would not say they are generally low quality students or terribly deficient in their knowledge or ability.

I am not the Admissions Tutor and have read no actual applications this year, so can only go by their summary feedback.

Generally, we have a higher proportion of applicants who are perfectly fine. When you are reviewing applications, you expect a certain proportion of them to be first-pass decisions - you can read their application and immediately decide yes or no.

This year, about 55% of all applications for my department's most popular course were a definite no in the first-pass, which is roughly in-line with what we would usually see. But only around 20% were a definite yes, which is low. The rest were maybes. The maybe applications are fine, they are competent students who could do the course and there is nothing wrong with them, indeed about 60% of them will end up getting an offer, but there is also nothing that says definitely choose me now because you will see no-one better. These applicants have to go around again to be split into the 60% who will get an offer and the 40% who won't. This is one of the reasons admissions has taken longer this year.

One of the reasons for this is, of course, that there are fewer applicants who can be boosted across the yes / maybe line by their exceptional grades. However, there are other common issues that seem to have cropped up more frequently.

For personal statements, issues that make an application seem weak can be broken down into two areas: one that is largely about the applicant's ability to use the personal statement to demonstrate what we are looking for; and one that is about their demonstrated intellectual ability.

For the first area, common issues are :

  • Laundry lists. For the personal statement, we are quite explicit about the purpose of it and what we are looking for. We state quite clearly that the personal statement allows us to assess an applicant's ability to construct a clear and well-reasoned narrative showing why they want to study the subject. We want to know what interests someone, why it interests them and what they have done to develop their interest.

Being able to construct a well-researched, thought-through and coherent argument is an important skill for our course, as it is for courses at similar level institutions the applicant might also be applying to. This is the applicant's opportunity to show that they are at least on the way to being able to do that. Ignoring our instructions and guidance on how we evaluate the personal statement because you want to tell us that you did this, and this, and this, no matter how prestigious the thises are or how proud you are of them, makes an application weak because it does not demonstrate one of the most essential things we are looking for.

We have seen 'the usual laundry lists' but apparently nothing exceptional here.

  • Boilerplates. This has been a growing issue for some years now. This is where the applicant has essentially acquired some kind of template of what a successful application looks like, whether from their school, the internet or somewhere else, and has to various extents copied it.

Being able to look at something successful and learn from it is a good thing. Sticking so rigidly to it that you are basically treating it like a 5 year old's fill in the blanks writing exercise - At the weekend I went to the [beach / shops / park]. It was [fun / busy / closed] - is not.

While these kinds of personal statements are generally well-written, and they are particularly common amongst the maybe group, there are two reasons why it is problematic. Firstly, it doesn't show the applicant's own ability to construct and develop a line of thought or to write coherently, it shows the ability of whoever wrote the thing they are using as their template. It also encourages applicants to force in things that are not actually impressive or relevant because they think they have to tick every box that the template application did. It can also be a sign if a lack of thought, effort or the applicant lacking confidence in their own intellectual ability.

Secondly, and of particular relevance to this cohort, it produces an awful lot of very samey personal statements. When you are applying for a course with 2,000 applicants, most of whom will be rejected, having something that is so very fundamentally the same as many other applicants does not work in your favour. This is particularly an issue for this cohort because their similar and not very reliable grades mean that they already have one part of their application where it is harder for them to stand out, adding another one gives you a fine, but decidedly average in the cohort, application. The most average, 50th percentage point applicant, will for these kinds of courses, be rejected. That is just how the stats work.

Common issues related to demonstrated intellectual ability are:

  • Jones says / Voice of God. These are two extremes of poor understanding of how to develop and analyse an issue.

'Jones says' can take two forms. One is where the applicant simply tells us what someone, often someone quite name droppingly famous, has said, perhaps with a vague 'so that's interesting' tacked on. It is good to have read things, but we assume already that you can read, so just providing some not entirely convincing summary as if to prove you have read it, is lower quality work.

The second form of 'Jones says' is where someone goes on and on and on about one single author's one piece of work that they have read with no critical understanding of it, its relevance or situatedness within the broader field or any development of their own thinking or other reading. They tell us something is really interesting, but not so interesting to them that they are willing to put in any work or thought beyond having identified its interestingness. This comes across as lazy, uncommitted and disinterested and shows a lack of understanding of how to research and develop thought.

'Voice of God' is where the applicant provides no tangible evidence for their thinking. What they write might be interesting, it might be decently thought through, but it is essentially a think piece and shows a lack of understanding of how to conduct and present academic thought. It can also be a sign of someone who will prove to be difficult to teach.

  • Specious, spurious and just plain wrong. It is always a plus in an application when someone attempts to analyse and develop and link their thinking together, but this is where there are fundamental flaws in an applicant's argument, discussion or evidence that we would expect someone of the level we are looking for to pick up. Not doing so suggests either a poor understanding of the material they are using or of analytical processes or an intellectual laziness.

The most common form of this is 'x so d' where the applicant states one thing then goes on to insist that it therefore tells them or us something quite different that doesn't follow from their initial proposition. This can be in relation to something they have read or some activity that they have done that they really want to make mean something bigger, better and more meaningful than it is.

  • General lack of thought. This is much like the laundry list where the applicant has just provided a series of disconnected paragraphs as though we were ticking things off on a list and they needed to provide one paragraph on 'things I have read' and then one paragraph on 'things I have done' and then one paragraph on 'how I'm a team player and can cope with lots of work'. There is nothing essentially wrong with this, but it does not demonstrate a depth of thought and understanding.

Intellectual errors, particularly errors of reasoning, are always more forgivable, because we would always rather someone tried even if they didn't do such a good job than that they didn't try and just listed out 'I have done this competition and that means I am really great and I have done DoE and that means I am a team player' and so on.

In terms of this years cohort, it seems we are seeing more 'Voice of God'ing and more grandiose but ultimately fallacious thinking. To an extent this reflects their very disrupted teaching, they simply have not learnt and practiced how to think at the academic level we require, but these applicants are supposed to be amongst the best of the best and we expect a level of self-direction and ability to learn, explore and understand by yourself to avoid such issues. We will expect this of them if they come to study with us.

Although it might seem like a lottery from the outside, a decent admissions tutor would be able to give a reason for every offer and every rejection.

For most applicants the school statements always tend to be much of a muchness outside of providing context on the school, although apparently this year they have been more 'lukewarm' than we might expect. I only have a vague understanding of what they mean here, but it seems some schools seemed a bit unwilling to commit to definitive statements on applicants (5th in a strong cohort of 89 type statements) and spent too much time saying what a hard time all pupils had had rather than providing any specific evidence or guidance as to whether we should think this particular applicant had been especially affected or had done anything exceptional in that context.

We try really hard not to penalise an applicant for having a school that writes a generally quite weak statement for them (this being different to when a school identifies real negatives about an applicant, but this rarely happens) but taken collectively it seems there was a sense of 'meh' about them which adds to the general assessment of quality.

@fishingeagle For my department, in a normal year between 4 and 8 first year students will drop out which is too small a number to draw any real conclusions. Generally they discover that they don't like the subject or don't like the subject how we teach it, or they have an illness or a personal issue that means they can't continue. I don't feel like I've heard of there being more this year. Thereafter we will lose maybe 1 or 2 people if that. For the university as a whole, throughout the pandemic (so 19/20 and 20/21 academic years) our drop out rates were lower than in previous years, only by less than 1% but our drop out rates are low anyway. This is partly attributable to the lack of other things for people who dropped out to go and do. I have not heard of any issues being raised this year but I am not doing a lot of teaching this year either.

I do know that some universities have experienced really terrible drop out rates over the past few years and, anecdotally, this year as well, but these are mainly lower ranked universities that have a higher proportion of students that would be identified as having a higher risk of dropping out and they have fewer resources to support them to not do so.

Eightytwenty · 15/05/2022 08:26

@Phphion Ive taken note on your super helpful post for future admission statements! Very interesting.

Do you have a view or advice on what happens when Dc apply for a variety of courses due to availability of said subject at the courses they want to apply to. DS applied to a combo of HIS/Pol, HIS/IR/, POL/IR - I half wonder if he didn’t get Durham because it wasn’t a part-history course unlike Cambridge / St Andrews.

SayYouDontMind · 15/05/2022 08:45

Another one who has earmarked your excellent post Phphion I would have loved to have had that to show my DS when he was writing his PS (although he must have managed to do one that passed muster!)

I think all our students probably wrote fantastic personal statements but I know it was challenging trying to tailor the statement to fit the Oxbridge criteria and write enough on the various subject combinations that my DS was applying to at his other Uni choices. There was always going to be something in the PS that was either superfluous or not fleshed out enough. My DS had to span politics, economics, philosophy and international relations. He knew that it was weaker as an IR PS and was therefore not surprised to get a rejection for that course.

DoubleFelix · 15/05/2022 09:19

Can I also add my thanks and admit I've printed it out!
Also apologies to everyone for crashing your thread. I have no skin the game this year, but will relatively shortly, and working in education I have found it really interesting to read about how difficult it has been for your DC this year. I wish them all well.

Geamhradh · 15/05/2022 09:29

@Eightytwenty In our school, attendance is at an all time low, and I don't think I have one class where there aren't MH issues coming to the surface, so I think all three of your points must also be valid for university applicants too. And, by and large, it's the brighter, more motivated students with the latter.

It'll be "interesting" in coming years to see whether it was a chicken or egg situation.

What we've seen and heard is lots of people blaming how school was organised during the height of Covid- lockdowns, online learning etc. I'd agree, but with an important caveat, at least here- for the last two years, we've not "been allowed" to fail anyone. Our final year kids (with only the maxi oral exam) have received subjectively high marks- to take into account the pandemic and how their learning has been disrupted.

Lower school kids who would have received low end of year marks, all received higher marks "due to Covid". (Here, if kids are struggling there are "debits" (nasty word) and those with a debit get extra lessons organised by the school to get them on a par with the rest of the class. They haven't happened for the last two years.)

Attendance, for the academic year 2019-2020 (once we went online in March) wasn't compulsory- so we had kids not logging on, not doing the work, and yet "passing" the school year. For 2020-2021 it was compulsory, but we still couldn't "fail" anyone, or give debits.

So, what we've been left with, is a whole year of kids (2020) who probably wouldn't have received such high final year results, (my fifth year class had 9 out of 24 students who received the absolute maximum grade- in a normal year there would be at most 2) so they went to universities they probably wouldn't have chosen normally.

My students with documented MH issues (all girls, all eating disorders) are all students who during Covid got high marks. They're now getting objective marks and they feel as if they are failing. They aren't. The top marks over the last two years was US failing THEM.

Long rambling post Eurovision musings! Sorry!

@Phphion I have also taken notes from your amazing post- thank you for taking the time to write it. I have no other child (thank the Lord, couldn't do this again!) applying, but I've pinched the terms you use for my writing classes! Brew

Stockpot · 15/05/2022 09:33

It sounds like applying to unique courses is a disadvantage because the PS cannot be optimised for all of them.

Reading Phphion’s post I’m satisfied DD did right with her PS. I’m an immigrant to this country and was urging her to do the laundry list. 🤦🏻‍♀️ She knew better than me. I couldn’t comment much on her PS, it was deep into interests I don’t share with her, I did comment on punctuation and flow which I think was fair.

She goes to a high flying private school. I know for sure that the school was scrupulously hands off in regards to PS. But I also know there are many accomplished parents, and some DC were following in their parents’ footsteps. There was a LOT of parental support in some cases. It certainly intimidated DD. This isn’t a state/private thing so much as DC with educated, clued up, highly committed parents having a huge advantage on PS.

I wonder if PS should be written at school under exam conditions, if universities are going to rely on them so heavily.

Letsgoforaskip · 15/05/2022 09:56

@Phphion thank you so much for such a brilliant and informative thread.
@Geamhradh It is heartbreaking to hear about the girls who now think they are failing. It just goes to show that systems that are meant to help can have fundamental flaws.
@Stockpot I agree that parental support can be hugely significant. Personal statements written under exam conditions would certainly level the playing field!

Aurea · 15/05/2022 09:56

@Puffalicious and @Eightytwenty and others

Congrats on your DCs offers! You must be v proud. I am also a Scottish mum with a DS applying for computer science next year. He has similar aspirations to your DC and I was hoping you could advise on his potential choices as I am somewhat surprised at the fierceness of competition and rejections of stellar students.

He is planning to apply for all top choices, hence my caution.

Cambridge
St As
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Durham

All for computer science.

He believes this is ok as he has achieved a lot academically. I hope you don’t think I’m blowing his trumpet but I thought it wise to put his achievements in context.

He has taken higher maths a year early in S4 (first for school) and got an A1 grade along with another higher in S4. He is so taking advanced higher maths in S5 (another first for school) and is on track for an A1 also. So he will apply in sixth year with 6 highers in hand (A1s) and hopefully an advanced higher in hand at A1. He goes to a state school in which he doesn’t study computer science so he has had to do lots of computer relating stuff outside school - won international coding comp, gold crest award, UKMT kangaroos, Oxford Computer Challenge distinction, etc…….

What do you think of his uni choices considering the above? I’m concerned he should have a lower ranked uni in there for balance. I know it’s slightly different for Scottish students applying for a Scottish uni, so I’d be interested to hear your thoughts and any anecdotes from friends of your DCs’ applications.

With thanks!

Aurea · 15/05/2022 10:18

Ooh…forgot to say he’s taking four more advanced highers in S6…..

Thank you. 😊

fishingeagle · 15/05/2022 10:59

@Phphion so much appreciate your taking the time to write this. My three DC all spent most of the summer before they applied researching and writing their personal statements so it's great to hear that they really do matter.

This has been my third time and hopefully final time of supporting a DC through applications to the highest tariff universities. This round has been by far the toughest of the three not least because of the egregious delays in receiving decisions from top universities that my son and most of his cohort have experienced. At worst I fear it may actually prevent some of those poor kids who still await decisions from fulfilling their potential. Keeping applicants waiting for 8 months and then sending out rejections in the week before A level exams start isn't a good look for any institution. It's unprofessional and wholly unacceptable.

Eightytwenty · 15/05/2022 11:12

@Geamhradh such an interesting update. I work in a global role so one of the interesting perspectives from the pandemic was talking to colleagues about their educational experiences. Didn’t know anyone in Italy though, and the examination and Covid responses seem very different. Albeit weirdly the Scottish curriculum for excellence (at least at primary level) attempts chunkily to do some of the things you described from the Viva. Mean time setting everyone up to pass and creating incorrect expectations doesn’t do anyone any favours.

@SayYouDontMind Ha, I thought we had it bad. Though it must be easier if you’re applying for a straight subject - unless you need to talk to specific modules / courses.

@Aurea sounds like your DC is super high achieving. Anecdotally the highest achieving kids in Scotland seem to have done well and having highers in the bag is an advantage. Most seem to have got into 1 / 2 of your list. Where I’m sad though is that many of DS’ peers (he was state till N5 and we moved him to private in the pandemic) are going to Glasgow/ Dundee etc. Not that these are bad universities (at all) but these are clever hard working kids who should have got into top institutions pre pandemic. I think they have been unduly impacted by it. There are definitely more from the private schools who’ve got offers to the places on your list - albeit more apply to England I guess due to parental finances.

fishingeagle · 15/05/2022 11:16

@Aurea We are in England but I would say generally much will depend on your DS's fee status and whether he is eligible for a contextual offer. If he is Home and non-contextual you will need to arm yourself with patience! I would definitely advise your DS to hedge his bets slightly and put at least one lower tariff in there. He may only get one or two offers otherwise. He sounds amazing and I hope it goes well for him.

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