Soft A levels

[Judy1234]

What annoys me about the article on page 1 of today's Sunday Times is that some state schools are not telling children that some Alevels are a load of rubbish or rather they aren't counted by the universities. Of course accountancy, law, theatre studies or any other studies are not going to be counted in the way as maths, French, history. All children know that in private schools and yet it says some state schools are keen for children to do the software easier a levels to get their places up in the league tables even at the cost of children then being surprised that the 3 As in needlework, cooking and gym don't count for much at Oxford or Manchester.

Some universities are publishing their lists of A levels that don't count which is helpful.

This might be why state school pupils are finding it hard to get into the good universities..."new analysis.. shows a gulf was emerging between state and private schools as comprehensives opted for soft A levels and independents and grammars tightened their trip on traditional academic subjects..the task of widening participation becomes harder." Most of the country doesn't have grammar schools so the cleverer of the the children in the comps are the ones suffering from this.

Media studies 95% non selective state schools take that. For sciences fewer than 1 in 10 A level pupils in non selective schools takes sciences compared with one third in grammars and independents.

I agree there should be different pathways for different kinds of learners / everyone should achieve etc etc, but why why are so many students getting such low grades?

Does anyone else wonder if there are too many "safety nets" in place, so it is not that important for students to achieve? Ie, if they don't do well at school, never mind, they will just go in at a lower level at college and they will be fine. I could very well be wrong, but it seems like there is such a gap - kids either seem to have fantastic grades, or really poor ones. Or maybe the average ones don't feel the need to speak to careers advisors???

I took Maths Physics and Chemistry A levels...Maths was good - I enjoyed it but GOD the other two were extremely boring. Then I did Engineering at one of the Russel group uni's - again even more boring.

So my point is that life is supposed to (at least) be somewhat interesting and if Art or Photography is your thing then go for it - ambition and personality count for a great deal more. If you've got both - all the better of course but I find that a rare combination.

I know that now, as I have the lovely task of employing/choosing desperately 'bright' children on paper who have been to Xenia's children's school and other similar (Perse school for girls and St Swithins etc) - I have a small highly specialised law practice.

My best employee so far is an 'on paper average A Levels girl' - softer option science degree - but had come to our firm later (~aged 28) as a temping secretary but I quickly saw her potential - absolutely brilliant. Keen as mustard and with no chips on her shoulder or riding off her over inflated-paid-for-results.

Good educational results can give you a really good start but shouldn't be obtained at the expense of everything else.

paulayates - RS is OK. Your son should make sure he's got at least one solid essay subject at A-level, and 2 is probably better (I know you write essays for economics but not of quite the same kind) - PPE is very essay-based at Oxford. History would be a good A-level to take for instance. It's also one of the most competitive degrees, and although most students do only 2 of the 3 elements, he'll be interviewed by tutors of all three, so he really needs to be able to demonstrate that he's been thinking and reading off his own bat. Something as simple as reading the Economist every week (and actually thinking about it obviously) is a good start, and the Oxford website almost certainly has some suggestions for philosophy reading (though the RS will no doubt help with that too). He also needs to be able to convince the tutors that he really is interested in the subject, not just the glamour/prestige of it! (this is perhaps particularly true with PPE). (NB I don't interview for PPE myself, but several close friends and colleagues, including my ex, do!)

If he is worried about getting in and wants to go into the City with an Oxbridge degree he might be better picking a subject to read that fewer people want to do but if he can get in to do PPE that's a great degree to have. My brother picked what was then an all girls college just letting in men which I think helped him get into Cambridge. My sister picked an all girls Oxford college which again I think was tactically sound choice because again competition wasn't so high.

Careers advice in private schools isn't too bad. I have often done the annual evening and we have lots of different parents invarious jobs giving talks and manning stalls and I then I used to do in to give sixth formers mock university interviews as did other parents in various disciplines. Some of the girls just have such amazingly oustanding CVs. Not all of course.

arionater thankyou so much for that - so helpful. ds just sort of 'happened' upon ppe as he was initially wanting to do philosophy and economics. will advise him re 'the economist' hopefully he will fork out and my mind will benefit - if nothing else
i do find this a-level choice thing stressful - feel i should do something but not sure what
the last thing i want to do is 'helicopter parent' and actually influence him
i want him to make his own mind up but at barely 15 he tends to go in all guns blazing without thinking!

milliways now I am even more interested
I am looking at placements for next year in that area (PGCE)

This school

DD's first serious bf went there Milliways!.

Does your DD have Miss Scott for English? She was DD's English teacher for GCSE & totally inspired DD - she left at the same time as DD went to 6th form college.

DOn't think so. SHe has 2 teachers for each subject but that name doesn't ring any bells.

Hows your DS getting on at Uni?

He's never terribly communicative, but he seems to be doing pretty well.
Hope DS is still enjoying Hogwarts!

Article in today's Telegraph lists all the subjects that Cambridge considers 'soft' options. But the point is made that it's fine (from Cambridge's point of view) to take one of these subjects. A candidate's chances of gaining entry would only be spoiled if two additional 'traditional academic' subjects were not taken. In fact a Cambridge spokesman extolls the benefits of a breadth of subjects. A ray of hope for anyone whose child is determined to sit A level PE, ICT, Media Studies, etc,

It's helpful when they give that information out so people know where they stand. They might well say it's fine to take a soft subject but surely if you have two candidates both equally confident and celver in the interview and one has 4 or even 5 As in hard subjects and one has 2 hard and 1 soft As at A level I suspect if the interviews are much the same they'd go with the harder A levels.

Durham University isn't on the Russell Group list?

Durham is a member of the 1994 group, Swedes - its website wouldn't open but this might help.

Oh sorry, that just leads back to their own website-which-won't-open.

And Leicester, Loughborough, the School of Oriental and African Studies and Queen Mary, University of London.

(That bit is undated though so there may even be more)

WendyW - So LSE is Russell Group and 1994 Group. I'm not sure I understand the significance of membership of either, mind you!

So is Warwick!

(Is there funding involved?)

paulayates, if you're still reading - I was chatting to the politics tutor over coffee this morning, and asked him about preferred A-levels for PPE; he confirmed what I said (an essay subject a good idea), and added that some, though not all, colleges won't consider a candidate without maths A-level (though your son is taking it isn't he?); the point is that you need to be able to do basic differential stuff, and while that used to be in AO level which a lot of people did after taking the GCSE or O-level early, it's now all under A-level; also maths is considered useful for formal logic in philosophy (though I am proof positive that it's not essential, I had no probs with logic though I had given up maths at 14). I think the point is that for PPE you don't need to be brilliant about maths/that kind of thinking, but you shouldn't be scared of it either, and should have some aptitude even if you haven't pursued it as far as A-level. Really what all three parts of PPE have in common is an interest in extracting a theory/principle from data of various kinds, and then setting that once more against the facts, so this talent for - and interest in - abstraction, and the relationship between theory and practice, is perhaps the central aspect.

xenia - I'm not sure you're quite right actually. At least in my experience of interviewing, we don't really see it in that way. The A-level choices/grades/predicted grades, like the school report and so on, are part of the 'bar' a candidate needs to get over for us to take them seriously. But once they're over that bar I, at least, tend not to think particularly about these elements when assessing their performance at interview/entrance tests. And of course we're well aware of the differences that schools make - both in teaching and in terms of subjects offered - and we do at least try to allow for them. Of three candidates competing for one place last year, the one we took was actually the weakest in terms of GCSEs.

The Russell group is a reasonable list for parents to look at to decide which are universities employers might think are good - remember that's what matters, what some idiot in HR or old white male who does recruitment thinks or whatever, not what a latest survey says.

And there'll be a logical pecking order within any list which is probably along the lines of
Oxford and Cambridge
Durham/Bristol/LSE/king's college/imperial

etc until you get down to places that are the ex polys. A reasonable thing to go on is which ones want AAA and which want AAB etc because that's market forces, supply and demand so that pretty much tells you which are in demand and which have cleverer students and which don't.

I am certainly not an expert - it's just that we've 3 children in higher education at the moment so year after year we've been going through the applications process and now I think I have 9 years off until the twins...The personal statement is important too I think. We had a talk at my daughter's school by a university entrance tutor about what he looks for including in relation to that. If everyone has AAA and you don't interview (most places except Oxbridge don't interview) then all you have to on is school report and personal statement written on the application and I suppose anything helpful like neither parent went to university, student disabled, went to worst comp in the country but did well and all those soft factors. he he

Actually Xenia, others do interview. I think this is a worry for a lot of state school pupils, because I do believe this is an area where private school pupils are likely to perform better.

Yeah the others interview but they won't put you up for the night and give you dinner like Oxford will. Had a great weekend away courtesy of Christchurch college a long long time ago.

Do you mean the interview chopchop? as being an area where private school students do better? I'm not sure about that - definitely true that they're more likely to get some practice, and, partly as a result, to be a bit more poised and have a kind of 'polish'; I suppose some admissions tutors might be attracted by that. But to be honest I don't think it gives them any actual advantage except perhaps in the case of very shy students for whom a bit of practice might give them the confidence to say anything much at all. I know from doing access events and open days and so on that state school pupils do worry a lot about the interview, feel that perhaps they're at a disadvantage, but to be honest sometimes it's the other way around - you see quite a lot of independent school students who are so convinced that they know the kind of thing you 'want' them to say that in interview you can never get past this and get them to actually think! It's often students from the less 'successful' schools who have fewer preconceptions of this kind, are much more open and interesting, and as a result you get a lot further.

Durham interview, and it's an overnighter - not up to Oxford standards though

Ohh Buckets I went to Christ Church.

they filmed Hogwarts there, did you know?

I did modern studies (Scottish Higher) and it was counted as a valid Higher to have by decent universities when I applied many years ago.....I was offered places at 4 decent ones too - but never went in the end