Epsom College Failing at Oxbridge?

[HedgehogFan]

I have a young DS at EC and have seen a considerable decline of Oxbridge offers compared to other similar Independent Schools. Does anyone know why?

Oxford and Cambridge are of course also stuffed with young people bursting with all round abilities in the non academic sense too.

Being clever doesn't preclude possessing any other positive attributes....

I spent a lot of time in the library when I was young, as it was simply the only place I could find the information I needed. I always thought that I would be able to achieve so much more if I went to a private school with resources.

These days the barrier to knowledge is so much lower because of the internet, a motivated, bright state school student can research a subject as well as any private school kid. I think this access to information helps to close the gap in interview performance.

Ada in a sense you already have that additional test for subject like law where sixth formers do the LNAT and there are other such tests I think for medicine and English etc.
I was looking at my 1978/79 diary and every university which did not reject me did interview me (for law) which was another filter I suppose but more work for institutions.

Good catch @MarchingFrogs. I didn’t look it up. My point still stands. The UK has many fine universities and more very bright children from all educational backgrounds than Oxbridge can hold. @Xenia and others on this thread are correct, the path to traditional, high flying careers includes more routes than Oxbridge.

@Adastraperaspera Perhaps read this which is self explanatory

www.isc.co.uk/media-enquiries/news-press-releases-statements/isc-and-associations-write-to-the-sunday-times-in-response-to-pandemic-grade-inflation-article/

It’s worth remembering that there are many degree courses in the UK which are incredibly competitive. One which springs to mind is paramedic science. That is probably a good thing if you ever wake up in the middle of the night with chest pains.

@SeasonFinale - of course they are going to defend independent schools, is that not their job? They represent them?
Did Ofqual actually have the manpower to check all grades properly?

I do not know enough facts and of course, the press tend to exaggerate. However, typically there is some truth in the matter. I do know that teacher friends at the local state schools were complaining that they ran just one set of formal assessment for their students whereas the independent, specially mentioned in that article, may have run multiple rounds and even changed their Easter holidays last minute. Of course it is just local gossip, however often there is also some truth in that.

So I do think the schools with anomalies should be investigated, in particular the management at those schools who signed off (not the teachers or students, of course).

One of the Sunday Times education writers is very anti private schools. My daughters private school ran more than 40 exams per student for their GCSEs over 6 weeks. A local state secondary that her friends are at did one week of exams to cover 9 GCSEs. The difference between all schools was highly varied.

@Adastraperaspera - did you even read the ISC letter before responding?

Similar to @CrimePodcast my own child at independent school had 3 sets of written exams for every subject. Extremely robust assessment, much more so than friends at local state schools.

But @Adastraperaspera don't let the evidence get in the way of your anti-private school toxic narrative...

@Mumtutu2 clearly @Adastraperaspera did not actually read the article because had she done so she would know the answers to many of those points she raises

But at least she admits "I do not know the facts"....

I don't think any of us can extrapolate anything very useful from our own specific experiences of Covid-limited exams. I know DD's state school set many A level papers last summer, and understand the same was true for GCSE students. DD certainly seemed to go in far more frequently to sit exam papers than her older sibling did for A levels a few years ago. Differences were inevitable when schools were given a more or less free hand in how they assessed.

Differences were inevitable when schools were given a more or less free hand in how they assessed Save that a moderation process was in place prior to grades submission and after too, as well as schools having to collate evidence, but why ignore facts when a negative spin suits a story more.

I also want to say excellent summary @WombatChocolate.

State school educated (well I educated myself...) here and Oxbridge. I hope there are even more bright state school pupils there in the future. There were far, far too many private and public school pupils there, including ones who struggled with the academic level. It also isn't the right fit for so many children. I loved it but won't necessarily push my (bright) children in that direction.

@DahliaMacNamara - you are quite right about extrapolation from individual experiences.

So @Adastraperaspera may want to reflect that her anecdata based on teacher friends reports doesn't tell anyone very much. I'd rather stick to the actual data...

“My daughters private school ran more than 40 exams per student for their GCSEs over 6 weeks.” But that is the whole point - how does that in any way mimic a real A-level or GCSE experience of one sitting?
That is exactly what my teacher friends in state schools struggle with - how would they have ever been able to accommodate doing that with Covid restrictions in place, limited facilities and a huge student body?
And of course, after multiple sittings there may be a few extra A stars in there. So the whole thing is unfair.

I am not at all anti private school - my DD attends an amazing one herself.

Anyone who knows anything about the independent schools at the top end of the league tables will know that it’s impossible for them to ‘wildly inflate grades’ as the margins are very narrow and there had always been a close and competitive ‘pecking order’ between schools (though they don’t like to admit it, of course). This means schools at the top of the league table will always keep a close eye on each other’s results . The league table results are published every year and sharp-elbowed patents will be devouring them! So, SPGS will come top every year with 99-100% 9-7 at GCSE. Not much room for inflation there! A close by school like Godolphin and Latymer will get a very similar 97% 9-7 in a normal year. But if they inflate their grades and (shock horror) overtake SPGS, everyone still know they inflated their grades and if G&L suddenly appears top of the league table by a whole 0.2% or whatever, that would put the cat among the pigeons in some circles . So what I’m saying is, the fact the margins are so tight means that these very selective schools police each other, in a sense. My kids are at two of these schools and they held formal exams in the full curriculum, mirroring exactly what would happen in national exams. Grades were 100% based on these exams. Grades were not inflated and this can be clearly seen in the published results which are the same as any other year. In fact, some students (including my DC) sent their scripts to the examining board and their grade went up from an A to A. Clearly the school were worried about giving out to many A because they will end up in the papers and accused of ‘inflating grades for privileged students’ or some such headline.

@annono1- well your schools sound like they did run the process fairly.
However, what about the schools that had eg 29per cent of A stars at A-level previously but for 2021, they suddenly had eg 60 per cent of all A levels being an A star. Surely whether they are an independent school or a state school (and Tiffin is mentioned in there) they (as in senior management) should be investigated, regardless of whether Ofqual did proper checks or not.

Did you read the ISC letter @Adastraperaspera ?

Here's what the HMC gave to say. This is a more detailed explanation

www.hmc.org.uk/blog/hmc-statement-following-record-breaking-assessment-results-and-sunday-times-coverage/

When we actually look at the numberss_ at A Level for example, the claims of ‘gaming’ simply do not stand up. At independent schools, 9,513 more entries were awarded A/A at A Level in 2021 than in 2020; likewise, in the state sector, 43,981 more entries. Those additional 9,513 independent sector entries represent an increase of 16.9% relative to the number awarded A/A in 2020, and the additional 43,981 state sector entries represent an increase of 21.4% relative the corresponding state sector entries in 2020.

@Mumtutu2 - thank you, of course I have read the letter. I am not interested in comparing the pool of independent schools as a whole against the state school pool.
I am specifically interested in which of the “top” 50 independent schools have significantly moved up on a hypothetical 2021 A level and GCSE league table because I would be firmly striking them off as a contender in my own children’s education. As annono1 points out, a clued up school with robust & ethical management would have seen this coming a mile off and handled it appropriately and fairly, in advance. It strikes of poor management and ethics to me and if you are at the top of your game, you should really know far better as a headmaster or headmistress and also points to a potentially weak governing body too. I will leave it at that.

Surely you choose an independent school based in far more than exam results. That’s very narrow.