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Higher education

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Epsom College Failing at Oxbridge?

289 replies

HedgehogFan · 05/02/2022 18:24

I have a young DS at EC and have seen a considerable decline of Oxbridge offers compared to other similar Independent Schools. Does anyone know why?

OP posts:
Mumtutu2 · 08/02/2022 20:43

Agreed @TizerorFizz - the idea that you would choose a school for your child based purely on exam results or Oxbridge numbers is just silly. Speaking from personal experience of course...

goodbyestranger · 08/02/2022 20:44

What were your own criteria TizerorFizz?

TizerorFizz · 08/02/2022 21:17

Smaller than local grammar so DD got opportunities and was included in as much as possible. Broad curriculum. Loads of clubs. Not too much down time. A busy school. Good pastoral care (boarding so it mattered), fun but purposeful atmosphere, good music and drama opportunities, somewhere DD felt “at home”, not difficult entry exams as she came from a state school, ethos of the school that we were happy with, exam results no worse than local grammars. Never looked at Oxbridge numbers. School hardly had any! But neither did local grammars in any number and their 6th forms were 3 times the size. I looked at the girls in the school and we were keen that DD fitted in and would be happy. She did and was.

TizerorFizz · 08/02/2022 21:18

I forgot: great head and deputy. The best we met by a long way.

SeasonFinale · 08/02/2022 21:23

[quote Adastraperaspera]@Mumtutu2 - thank you, of course I have read the letter. I am not interested in comparing the pool of independent schools as a whole against the state school pool.
I am specifically interested in which of the “top” 50 independent schools have significantly moved up on a hypothetical 2021 A level and GCSE league table because I would be firmly striking them off as a contender in my own children’s education. As annono1 points out, a clued up school with robust & ethical management would have seen this coming a mile off and handled it appropriately and fairly, in advance. It strikes of poor management and ethics to me and if you are at the top of your game, you should really know far better as a headmaster or headmistress and also points to a potentially weak governing body too. I will leave it at that.[/quote]
Fortunately you won't have to strike any "top 50" ones off your list as the figures show those top schools were the ones least able to manipulate their figures.

Mumtutu2 · 08/02/2022 21:31

For us it was meeting Sixth Formers who were the sort of young men we hoped our sons would grow up to be. Great sporting opportunities even if not an A team player. Music opportunities for all. An Inspirational head. Convenient location.

The results were excellent but we could have gone elsewhere and found very similar.

Autumncoming · 08/02/2022 21:31

Just want to point something out that's being missed here a bit I think. Similar to job interviews, in oxbridge interviews tutors are choosing people they will work closely with over several years. They're mainly to pick people who are clever, teachable, hard working and enthusiastic.
I went to both Oxford and Cambridge and conversations with tutors about admissions implied they see a lot of 'trained' candidates from independent schools. The tutors found it harder to know whether these kids' enthusiasm was legit whereas with state schools kids their enthusiasm was more natural and believable because it all came from them.

Ultimately they want students who they know want it and are motivated.

Adastraperaspera · 08/02/2022 21:36

Many of my friends were directly impacted by the Onac scandal at St Olaves so I probably place more emphasis on senior leadership than many other people would. An unethical headmaster who doesn’t put the children first, but his own career/grades etc can ruin a school pretty quickly. Equally, the opposite is true as well.

So what I was trying to say is that significant grade inflation during Covid times equals poor and unethical leadership to me. I know I look for a headmaster or head mistress who listens with empathy and leads with compassion. Relatively low turn over of staff is another good indicator. Good facilities etc tend to be a given in a top independent school. I don’t like the type of head master who comes in and rocks the entire boat in a year. I want someone who is there to stay and takes 1-2 years to observe first.

Crummles · 08/02/2022 21:36

Plenty of parents don't even have a choice. It's your local comprehensive or nothing

TizerorFizz · 08/02/2022 21:48

@Mumtutu2
Yes. The 6th formers can be a decent indicator of what your DC might aspire to.

Of course lots of parents don’t get a choice. The post was about a private school though.

SnowballSevenoaks · 08/02/2022 21:53

Hedgehog, of course you want the best for your child so I totally understand your worry. However it sounds as if he is still quite young. As long as he takes the opportunities available to him, by Year 12 he's likely to have a very clear idea of the subject he'd like to study, and the environment he prefers. That may or may not be Oxbridge. Best wishes to you and your DS.

CrimePodcast · 08/02/2022 22:27

A lot of private schools were ready to move to remote learning on day 1 of lockdown, not 3 months later. So they gained academically there. Then the syllabuses were reduced and some of the GCSE questions provided by the gov to all - state and private, teachers and pupils. These variables will all have contributed somewhat to different results. To just shout ‘gaming it’ is a cheap shot written by someone with an anti-private school bias.

Xenia · 09/02/2022 09:45

Every private school parents will have their own range of reasons for choosing to pay school fees. I don't think we can generalise. I wanted day schools, fee paying from age 4 to 18 (although had the children wanted it they could have boarded - their father teaches part time at a leading boarding school not that that gets you a place but it was certainly offered as a possibility to my 3 sons). I wanted single sex schools and then it was a question of destination of leavers and reputation of the school and then finally but just as importantly which should would have the children as for the more difficult to get into schools it is not so much you choose the choose as they handpick a few of those who apply and the rest don't get in!

Malbecfan · 09/02/2022 21:34

Goodness me Xenia I was almost the opposite to you! It had to be state schools due to finances and categorically NEVER single sex after my own awful experience in a "leading" indy girls school in the NW of England. We looked at at least half a dozen primaries before we found the one that felt right to us - both DDs went right through from R - y6. Then both went to my school after visiting all the local secondaries, but mine was the one they and DH liked best. TBH we never looked at destinations post A level. We were more interested in pastoral care and music opportunities. But each to their own!

TizerorFizz · 09/02/2022 22:28

My DDs would only have got into our local state primary. No point looking at 6. Thank God the infant school was brilliant. The Junior had its issues but DD1 got the rub of the green with teachers. DD2 didn’t so we went private. For both prep and senior we looked at destinations but i saw DC as individuals. Also DD1 turned out to be good at MFL. We had no
idea of her talents. So we didn't look much at destinations because these dc were not ours.

KaptainKaveman · 10/02/2022 08:06

@WombatChocolate

I think a lot of parents (and kids) have no idea what genuine passion for a subject looks like. They think that students chugging along doing the bare minimum, who scrape an impressive range of grades at GCSE must be suitable candidates.

Many people can’t imagine kids who love their subjects and read widely through choice, and who are just hungry for knowledge on that topic. It’s not unhealthy to have that hunger and passion, alongside excellent GCSE results and great A Level predictions. It’s what they’re loooking for and to be honest schools can’t generate that hunger. Fee paying schools which run Oxbridge programmes that give out reading lists, run groups to discuss books or papers (that half the group won’t have got round to reading) and practice interviews, cannot and do not replicate the true genuine interest.

In the past, when applications were lower, some of those who’d been prepped by their schools but weren’t that bright or genuinely interested could get places. Those days are going, because with so many more state school entrants actually applying, amongst them there are numbers of genuinely passionate high achievers…and they are the ones who are pushing out the middling, good GCSEs on paper but limited genuine interest candidates.

The non-top tier independents have hoards of kids who achieve good exam results but lack the genuine drive. Unless they are really top tier, most of these schools will see numbers drop. Even the top tier will see numbers drop a bit, it’s quite simply a much more competitive market. Yes, independent schools will be digging around to find mor sways to polish their students and help them compete, but the bottom line and trajectory is that with Oxbridge feeling like a genuine option for really clever state school kids, instead of the previous ‘it’s not for people like us and only for the rich’ a higher proportion of places will go to state school kids.

As much as independently educated kids and parents might like to think it, fee paying schools don’t by their nature have a monopoly on clever kids….most of them of course are in the state school system. Fee paying schools might have more clever kids than their numbers would predict, by dint of clever parents (with clever kids) being more likely to be able to afford fees, but the vast majority of clever kids are in the state system. And there are also lots of bright but not top notch kids and decidedly average kids in the independent sector. Money still buys privilege without a doubt and it still buys options and opens doors….but the extent of this is shrinking. It’s gradual, but it’s shrinking. And it results in posts like the OPs, where fee paying parents are outraged that Oxbridge numbers are down at their school and looking to blame the school or the system, because surely the kids who have had fees paid all their lives should be getting the places. They cannot conceive of it being simply that in a wider market, most of the fee paying kids won’t be good enough, or that throwing money at the issue cannot rectify it. Because surely by paying you can have whatever you want??

100% agree with this post.

I am in education and have had to deal with wealthy parents of dc at expensive schools / colleges who are honestly aghast that their dc's chances of Oxbridge have been affected by the process towards 'levelling up' (hate that expression!). One parent actually said to me "It's not fair". Imagine that Shock.

I also agree that there are an awful lot of students who don't really understand what drive and passion are. The natural inclination to read around your subject, research and investigate because you want to and are interested cannot be faked IMO.

I think the interview process plays a significant role in the selection process, although clearly it is fallible and subjective, as any interview process is bound to be.

We need to be aiming towards a society where the school you go to does not 'open doors' and give you a 'get into Oxbridge for free' pass.

There are still a lot of 'posh' kids entering Oxbridge but the demographics are slowly changing - slowly, I emphasise.

Needmoresleep · 10/02/2022 08:57

Simple for us. We live in one of those inner city educational black holes that existed two decades ago. And not only was state provision struggling, but there was a desperate shortage of places, so much so that DS was not allocated any secondary school till summer half term and then in a school on the other side of London.

Local choices were: move, rent in another catchment in advance of 11+ (very common), tutor for a distant grammar/selective, play the religious card, or pay. Paying seemed the most straightforward though it meant me effectively having two jobs whilst raising children and looking after elderly parents. I really don't know anyone who sent their kids to the catchment secondary, which was 93% FSM for a decade or more - the highest in the country. (And which has an inspirational head and which did a good job in providing a safe and secure learning environment for the kids who really needed one, but without perhaps the resources to provide stretch/aspiration for its most able.)

London indies are then a whole different ball game, and it was then a question of fit, and who would take them. We wanted co-ed for DD (I went to an all girls school and wished I could have gone somewhere that took maths/STEM more seriously) so she ended up commuting a fair distance at 11-16. DS was lucky and gained a place at our nearest selective secondary.

Had we lived elsewhere they would have gone to state schools. What is particularly weird is that some of the parents we know, who are most vehemently anti-private, and who have passed on these attitudes to their DC, both could have easily afforded private but took the renting in catchment option. I may be biased but am reluctant to allow them any moral high ground.

Its fine. DC not only had a great education but enjoyed it and have remained intellectually curious. One did not get into Cambridge, despite having a huge super-curricular interest in his subject, whilst the other, with our support, did not apply.

That curiosity and education will stay with them. Oxbridge might have been nice but is not necessary. There are plenty of other strong departments in the UK which will nurture interest, provide any technical skills required, and open the doors they want opened. With the obvious advantage of being a bigger fish in the pond and without the stress of the short terms and a cohort including a fair proportion of over-achievers.

One slight oddity of the debate about Oxbridge recruitment is its one-sidedness. American Universities recruit on a more holistic level, as in what will this applicant contribute to the University and campus life. Oxbridge, perhaps rightly, does not. Amongst DCs classmates were a future president of the Oxford Union, several rowing blues, a leading member of Footlights, several choristers and a surprising number who have stayed on to take PhDs, with some interesting scholarships and prizes along the way. Not exclusive to private schools, but good schools can do a lot to nurture broader interests, which in turn allows students to contribute constructively to wider campus life.

I can think of one boy in particular who was an absolute standout at school and continued to be the same in several spheres after being fished from the pool for Oxbridge. With the increased competition he probably would not have got through this year. His loss yes, but also a loss for the University.

As Oxbridge becomes more problematic, I think we are already seeing some pupils whose accomplishments fit with US recruitment patterns head across the pond. London is a good fall back for many, but not, perhaps for those very suited to the broader aspect of campus/college life. Indeed for some, the US colleges offer the advantage of continuing to spend real time on sport or music whilst gaining a top class education.

goodbyestranger · 10/02/2022 09:21

Needmoresleep not sure that being president of the Oxford Union is in any way an accolade these days....

goodbyestranger · 10/02/2022 09:25

If anything, it seems even more ridiculous than the current House of Commons.... hard to credit, but....

Needmoresleep · 10/02/2022 09:45

I don't disagree. What I was trying to do was to give an illustration of the range of contribution some students, from whatever type of school, can make. Although I think the boy in question was part of some international debating team, so very good indeed. And that these contributions are part of what make Oxbridge special.

London, as a contrast, is different. Everything is there but not necessarily University based. DD belonged to a good local sports club, and they quite regularly had good players who happened to be in University in London. Similarly strong musicians, etc might find choirs or orchestras outside the University.

TizerorFizz · 10/02/2022 09:46

Yes. I blame it on the schools they went to!

nolanscrack · 10/02/2022 10:18

Well said nomoresleep,the ivys and equivalents are actively recruiting at school,they know these boys will have the required academics but more importantly they will probably have excellent super curriculars,something that is of no interest to Oxbridge,but is very much part of the US package,given that,why wouldnt boys be interested,

Adastraperaspera · 10/02/2022 10:30

It is not just Oxbridge though is it. Lots of the international London finance crowd who are the ones who can still afford the hefty school fees are happy for their kids to go US way because they don’t like what they are seeing in current UK and where it is and has been heading for the last few years.. UK top private schools are currently still in favour internationally. I think at uni level I hope it stays that way, but I am not sure. My friends in academia are pretty concerned about it especially as regards the predicted drop from EU applicants.

goodbyestranger · 10/02/2022 10:45

They would naturally be interested, especially if they don't think that they'll get an offer from Oxbridge, where some kids do actually play sport etc at quite a tolerable level.

Adastraperaspera · 10/02/2022 11:41

You do realise @goodbyestranger that most of the DC at the top independents also sailed into superselective grammars, right? However, chose not to go because they wanted the broader experience and extra curricular that the independent offered AND their parents happened to be able to afford the fees, typically because their own parents had in many cases, also been to Oxbridge and then career in law/finance. And said DC do have IQs in the 140us - now if those DC are not getting in these days but going off to the US and all over the world to work and pay taxes there, not necessarily a good thing.