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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Epsom College Failing at Oxbridge?

289 replies

HedgehogFan · 05/02/2022 18:24

I have a young DS at EC and have seen a considerable decline of Oxbridge offers compared to other similar Independent Schools. Does anyone know why?

OP posts:
goodbyestranger · 07/02/2022 20:52

Oblonsky I am utterly clear what this conversation is about.

And again, the following is completely wrong, also potentially deeply unhealthy for the DC in question : the harsh reality that to have a reasonable shot they need to develop their interest for a course early and deeply.

Just such bullshit tbh.

cantkeepawayforever · 07/02/2022 21:07

I am not sure about that 'early' adjective.

To be interested - yes. To be able - yes. To have selected a reasonable suite of A-levels that are suitable for that subject - yes. To be able to articulate specific areas of interest and be willing to discuss problems and challenges within that area - yes.

To have a 'deep' interest 'early'? Not so much. If you look back from DD's UCAS course decision at the age of 17, one can see a pattern that leads up to it. In 6th form she did quite a lot of supercurricular things related to it (as well as a lot of supercurricular and extra curricular that was not at all related). However, it definitely isn't true that at 13 or 14 she would have said 'Oh, I want to study X, and I'm always thinking about it'.

Equally DD's friend has just got into Oxbridge having applied post A-levels to a course that wasn't even on her radar, in fact is different in every way from the courses she applied to in Y13, because her passion has come slightly later but is no less genuine.

goodbyestranger · 07/02/2022 21:13

Quite.

Several of my DC floated between subjects, in terms of their preference. DD4 wasn't sure whether to go for MFL, Classics, English or History until relatively late (Y12).

Early is bullshit, as is deep. One History tutor told me that when he went up to oxford he was interested in the subject but not passionate. His view was that there are other much healthier things for an intelligent 18 year old to be passionate about rather than an academic subject. Parents of the pushy persuasion get so weird about Oxbridge.

mids2019 · 07/02/2022 21:19

I think whatever the type of school attended the system for high achieving children is under a great deal of pressure . I read an article suggesting a third of A levels would be A or A star at A level....that's a lot of straight A students!

With the application to place ratio being around 5:1 for Oxbridge and with grade inflation and WP presumably meaning this value will increase is it time to think about what we mean by elite education?

I happen to think that giving Oxbridge as a target for academic high achievers becomes a bit unpalatable when the student realises the odds of getting in; how many in future will be willing to take the psychological blow of rejection given these odds?

The pressure then is placed with a subsection of other high ranking universities who have to cater for those who failed to get into Oxbridge with the finest of margins and those who get in through a reduced clearing grade. There may be quite a range of ability to manage and all students now must be expecting a 2:1 or first given they may come out of uni with 50K of debt (employer cut off).

Grade inflation hasn't helped to differentiate the truly academically gifted and only Oxbridge have the luxury of meaningful interviews (or other tests) to filter candidates. The Oxbridge scramble gets worse every year and I don't know whether this is entirely healthy.

Crummles · 07/02/2022 21:37

In Yr12 my dc was completely sure that their 'passion' was for a subject which they ended up not applying for, or studying at Oxford (although it is a related subject but not obviously so to some. The change of heart happened in Yr13.

HoneyMobster · 07/02/2022 21:52

DS was a set on History at the start of year 12. Now in his 2nd year of Chemistry...

goodbyestranger · 07/02/2022 22:18

Haha well so much for that theory then :)

Heaps of very bright kids are polymaths.

Early/ deep my Aunt Fanny.

goodbyestranger · 07/02/2022 22:31

Not very articulately put. Distracted by Mamma Mia 2. The gist is there though.

Crummles · 07/02/2022 22:42

That's great @ honeymobster!

My dc idea of a great weekend could be going to an exhibition or gallery, a gig, a film, knitting, sewing, watching Poirot or Bake Off, etc. Certainly not reading and researching heavy tomes related to one particular A level subject (except very occasionally)

Boosterquery · 07/02/2022 23:04

Not saying every successful Oxbridge applicant develops a strong interest in their subject early, but I suspect a lot do. I would have correctly guessed DD's future degree subject before she left primary school (OK, joint honours MFL and I'd have predicted French, but still...). Two students in my form at school went to Oxbridge. The one who did a music degree had passed grade 8 on an instrument before leaving primary school (!). The one who went on to do maths was the kid who was 20 questions ahead of anyone else in any given maths lesson.

LaChanticleer · 07/02/2022 23:06

They cannot conceive of it being simply that in a wider market, most of the fee paying kids won’t be good enough, or that throwing money at the issue cannot rectify it.

Excellent summary @WombatChocolate

ErrolTheDragon · 07/02/2022 23:21

Truth is, of course, 'Oxbridge material' (shudder again) is a very mixed cloth. Polymaths and single focussed. Early interest in, or related to, their eventual chosen field may not be in the least 'academic'.

AlexaShutUp · 07/02/2022 23:24

@WombatChocolate

I think a lot of parents (and kids) have no idea what genuine passion for a subject looks like. They think that students chugging along doing the bare minimum, who scrape an impressive range of grades at GCSE must be suitable candidates.

Many people can’t imagine kids who love their subjects and read widely through choice, and who are just hungry for knowledge on that topic. It’s not unhealthy to have that hunger and passion, alongside excellent GCSE results and great A Level predictions. It’s what they’re loooking for and to be honest schools can’t generate that hunger. Fee paying schools which run Oxbridge programmes that give out reading lists, run groups to discuss books or papers (that half the group won’t have got round to reading) and practice interviews, cannot and do not replicate the true genuine interest.

In the past, when applications were lower, some of those who’d been prepped by their schools but weren’t that bright or genuinely interested could get places. Those days are going, because with so many more state school entrants actually applying, amongst them there are numbers of genuinely passionate high achievers…and they are the ones who are pushing out the middling, good GCSEs on paper but limited genuine interest candidates.

The non-top tier independents have hoards of kids who achieve good exam results but lack the genuine drive. Unless they are really top tier, most of these schools will see numbers drop. Even the top tier will see numbers drop a bit, it’s quite simply a much more competitive market. Yes, independent schools will be digging around to find mor sways to polish their students and help them compete, but the bottom line and trajectory is that with Oxbridge feeling like a genuine option for really clever state school kids, instead of the previous ‘it’s not for people like us and only for the rich’ a higher proportion of places will go to state school kids.

As much as independently educated kids and parents might like to think it, fee paying schools don’t by their nature have a monopoly on clever kids….most of them of course are in the state school system. Fee paying schools might have more clever kids than their numbers would predict, by dint of clever parents (with clever kids) being more likely to be able to afford fees, but the vast majority of clever kids are in the state system. And there are also lots of bright but not top notch kids and decidedly average kids in the independent sector. Money still buys privilege without a doubt and it still buys options and opens doors….but the extent of this is shrinking. It’s gradual, but it’s shrinking. And it results in posts like the OPs, where fee paying parents are outraged that Oxbridge numbers are down at their school and looking to blame the school or the system, because surely the kids who have had fees paid all their lives should be getting the places. They cannot conceive of it being simply that in a wider market, most of the fee paying kids won’t be good enough, or that throwing money at the issue cannot rectify it. Because surely by paying you can have whatever you want??

Excellent summary @WombatChocolate
Empressofthemundane · 07/02/2022 23:37

Population is increasing. Percentage of children going to university is increasing. Oxbridge places are not increasing. It’s pretty obvious that a lot of very bright children will not get into Oxbridge, whatever sector the aspirants are coming from.

The UK has 6 ancient universities, 27 Russel Group universities, and some wild cards like Bath. Parents need to understand that while Oxbridge has an undeniable glamour, it’s not the only credible option. As @Xenia pointed out, employers already realise it.

goodbyestranger · 07/02/2022 23:38

Absolutely true Errol, about mixed cloth. And the tutors seem to like teaching diverse groups in each cohort. So really these prescriptions of what a DC must or mustn’t do or be are pointless.

Inebottle · 08/02/2022 01:26

@Empressofthemundane

Population is increasing. Percentage of children going to university is increasing. Oxbridge places are not increasing. It’s pretty obvious that a lot of very bright children will not get into Oxbridge, whatever sector the aspirants are coming from.

The UK has 6 ancient universities, 27 Russel Group universities, and some wild cards like Bath. Parents need to understand that while Oxbridge has an undeniable glamour, it’s not the only credible option. As @Xenia pointed out, employers already realise it.

I didn't realise that 4 of the UK's 6 ancient universities are in Scotland! Impressive.
Xenia · 08/02/2022 08:33

Good point about population. There are 17m people more than when I was born (plus 1m of people not officially here according to estimates). When I went to university in 1979 15% of people went to university. No one had ever been to Oxbridge from my school (small private school NE England) until my younger sibling went. Most girls from my school did not go to university. About5 of us did - I still have the school magazine entry for that year setting out who went where. I probably should have had a go but my headmistress put me off and said (wrongly) that because I was a year young at school (I went to university aged 17)I could not apply. She also said I should not be a lawyer as there were too many in the 1970s (luckily I ignored her on that one). I did get it into my head from the book after book after book I read from the library all through my teens that I should try for a university scholarship so I looked them up and put myself in for one with the school deputy head's support - she made a room available at school for me to sit 3 x three hour exams:- (i) General Studies including Mathematics (ii) General History and (iii) English on three consecutive days and I won one to Manchester. Durham and Bristol rejected me as my A level predictions were not high enough (I ende dup with the best A level results int he school, top of year 1 in my law degree and top of 2 subjects in year 3 of my law degree). I suspect I probably could have been an Oxbridge candidate. When my A level results came out before university they were pretty high and I remember neighbours in the street coming up to me with congratulations (as As were so unusual in those days - I got AAB in days before no A*) and suggesting I took a year off to try Oxbridge but I just wanted to press on with leaving home. It was all fine. Manchester had a great law school with Tort taught by Harry Street of the law book Street on torts, my tax lecturer went on to great things and another lecturer then Brenda Hoggett went on to become the first woman to sit on the UK Supreme Court (Lady Hale).

Anyway as a non Oxbridge person with 5 non Oxbridge children and none of us having even tried I just wanted to make the general point that it is not a career death sentence to end up at Durham, LSE, Bristol etc. Top employers look to those places too.

ErrolTheDragon · 08/02/2022 09:05

I just wanted to make the general point that it is not a career death sentence to end up at Durham, LSE, Bristol etc. Top employers look to those places too.

Yes, too much focus on oxbridge is daft. On the STEM side, the most relevant thing to many of the more interesting jobs is often your specialism - so for sciences the 'what' of a postgrad degree which is strongly determined by the 'who' you did it with and thus only indirectly the 'where'. For engineering, if the student knows what field they want to specialise in then doing general engineering at oxbridge may not be the best option. Medicine/vets afaik it doesn't matter much - everywhere is competitive and they'll all be extremely employable.

Phos · 08/02/2022 09:09

Its because due to the current consensus gentium, Oxbridge are having to a) facilitate more outreach programmes to attract supposedly underrepresented groups and b) when these groups apply, give them contextual/lower offers to make sure they get in (so for Maths AAB/ABB rather than AAA)

Mamamwmwma · 08/02/2022 09:11

My dc was adamant they didn’t want to study medieval history at A level. Now they are doing a degree they love it. I can’t imagine thinking a 14 year old has to develop a passion for a subject they may want to do as a degree. If it isn’t an organic process for them, for the love of god don’t force this crap on them.

MarchingFrogs · 08/02/2022 09:20

The UK has 6 ancient universities, 27 Russel Group universities

russellgroup.ac.uk/about/our-universities/
The Russell Group’s 24 members...

Which other 3 have manages to sneak in without the cabal actually noticing?

Adastraperaspera · 08/02/2022 09:21

Should Oxbridge just be for young adults who have such an in-depth interest in their subject that they have the potential to become future academics?
Or should Oxbridge also be for all rounders and City law firm and banker types. Because it used to be the latter. Is it changing? And if so, will those City jobs actually start going to a higher percentage of Russell group universities? Because we look for all rounders who work hard and are naturally bright, but also have really good team working skills, some grit and people skills. We do not want just young people with too much subject focus. We really need the soft skills too. Unless you are a tax or pensions lawyer, the underlying law is not complex enough for a genius to sustain his or her interest in a 40 year career.
I welcome Oxbridge taking on more state school children but we need the law firms and banks to do the same. And not just take on young Hugo because Daddy is a Senior investment banker at Goldman Sachs and 3rd generation Harrow so it is likely to lead to more business from his bank for X law firm.

ErrolTheDragon · 08/02/2022 09:43

@Phos

Its because due to the current consensus gentium, Oxbridge are having to a) facilitate more outreach programmes to attract supposedly underrepresented groups and b) when these groups apply, give them contextual/lower offers to make sure they get in (so for Maths AAB/ABB rather than AAA)
They aren't giving lower offers, you're completely wrong about that. I'm pretty sure that neither Oxford nor Cambridge reduces their standard offers for anyone.

Oxford's 'contextualisation' is around who they invite for interview, assessing achieved grades versus their school. Afaik the main thing Cambridge does at the moment is to offer summer pool places to some applicants from disadvantaged groups who didn't get an offer in January but who achieve or exceed the standard offer grades. (They do make offers above the standard offer of two A stars and an A for stem subjects for some applicants.)

ErrolTheDragon · 08/02/2022 09:52

Should Oxbridge just be for young adults who have such an in-depth interest in their subject that they have the potential to become future academics?
Or should Oxbridge also be for all rounders

They're for both, of course. On the STEM side, perhaps there will be rather more of the asymmetrically talented types. The dyslexic mathematical genius for instance, who nowadays isn't automatically excluded because of an inability to pass an MFL exam. But some of the courses (inc joint honours at Oxford) are well suited to people who don't have a very narrow focus.

Adastraperaspera · 08/02/2022 09:55

Regarding grade inflation, I assume the Education department will need to overhaul post-2022 and make A levels much harder again, especially the A-star. There was an article in the Sunday Times this weekend about grade inflation at independent schools. Majority of children in most of the top schools appear to have achieved straight A* in 2021. So the grades won’t tell Oxbridge anything much.
Alternatively, perhaps the UK university system would benefit from US Style IQ/reasoning testing for all as well as A level grades, e.g. SAT.

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